Nicholas Guarino — Direct (Part 1)

MR. GUARINO: Good afternoon.

MR. GUARINO: Good afternoon, sir.

MR. GUARINO: Yep. Nicholas Guarino, G-U-A-R-I-N-O.

MR. GUARINO: I work for the Massachusetts State Police.

MR. GUARINO: This is my ninth year now.

MR. GUARINO: I was a local police officer in Norwood for almost 11 years.

MR. GUARINO: Currently work at the Norfolk District Attorney's Office.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that's correct.

MR. GUARINO: I conduct cell phone forensics, computer forensics, and I also do sexual assault investigations.

MR. GUARINO: I have about 300 or so hours at Cellebrite, CCO, CCPA, cell phone repair forensics, Berla motor vehicle forensics, Axiom Magnet cell phone and computer forensics, Xways. These are all different programs used for cell phone and computer forensics.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I have.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I did.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I did.

MR. GUARINO: No, that was I reached out after the defense expert's findings were released, and I read his report.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I did.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: So Berla is a specialized hardware and software used to download the infotainment and telematics modules in a vehicle. So telematics module is basically like the SIM card for the car, and the infotainment system is your radio head unit that enables you to have Apple Play -- excuse me -- CarPlay or android or Google Play for the vehicle.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, sir.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, it's Lexus LX 570 SUV.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I did.

MR. GUARINO: After we removed it from the vehicle, it was brought back to Norfolk DA's office for that extraction or attempt to.

MR. GUARINO: So depending on the system, it's dismantled. They have this specialized hardware that actually goes on to the motherboards of these systems, and we're able to pull the data. Or the other option, if that's not viable, is to do a chip off where we have to basically destroy the motherboard and take the memory chips off the devices, try to get the data that way.

MR. GUARINO: So at the time that we pulled the system, it was not supported. I emailed Berla and called them to see if they had a timeline of when this might be supported so we could get the data. We deemed chip off last port -- excuse me -- as a last resort because it is a destructive process, so once those memory chips are taken off, the likelihood of trying to reattach them and get it to work again is very slim.

MR. GUARINO: Whether or not Berla has the ability to pull the data from that vehicle.

MR. GUARINO: They have an app, and they also have their tech support. But if you put in the VIN of the vehicle, or if you don't have the VIN, you have the make, model, and trim level, like limited or XLE or whatever, you would be able to go in and look it up and basically say -- Berla will tell you, yes, it's supported for GPS points, or it's supported for diagnostic data, or, you know, whatever that they're able to get out of the vehicle, and they work with automakers to get these -- get this data, so.

MR. GUARINO: I don't know. As of right now, it's a lot, and they're constantly updating it so they are able to do more vehicles as time goes on.

MR. GUARINO: The trim level that the defendant had is not still supported. There is Toyota and Lexus support now, but it's not, unfortunately, for her model.

MR. GUARINO: That's correct.

MR. GUARINO: Immediately when I did the data extraction -- I shouldn't say extraction. But when I took the system out of the vehicle, I had to reach out to Berla because where it wasn't supported, they actually had to send me tech diagrams so I could go in, and, again, not destroy the whole vehicle as I just took those components out. Over the next, God, almost two years, year and a half of going back and forth with them with their support and their sales team.

MR. GUARINO: Usually every few months. I want to say every three months, give or take. I forget the exact number, but phone calls or an email to them asking.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I do.

MR. GUARINO: So Berla has a booth at the National Cyber Crime Conference. I spoke with their sales team there. Their response was to keep calling Berla, keep pestering them, and they might actually get the support sooner than later.

MR. GUARINO: No, unfortunately.

MR. GUARINO: Not from the infotainment system, but Berla released a new item, similar to a mechanic's scan tool. It plugs into the OBD2 port, which is underneath the dash. So if basically if a mechanic went in there with a scan tool to tell you why you have a check engine light, it just does something similar. So you plug it in, and then it pulls the car diagnostic data from that.

MR. GUARINO: Again, I got a series of 14s was the numbers. It was no readable data. I reached out to Perla -- Berla and asked them, I said, you know, is there a reason why it pulled this data, but they when I put it into the software, it's not telling me anything. It's not giving me any readable data. They said they know it is diagnostic data, but haven't gotten anything from Lexus to say, these 14s, these codes mean this. They only know it as emissions.

MR. GUARINO: Other than the number 14, no.

MR. GUARINO: It was placed back into our digital evidence lab, and then we did eventually do a chip off to the device.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that's correct. And again, if you could expound upon a little as far as can you describe for the jury sort of the chip process, why you were reluctant to do it, and what's entailed in it? A As I said before, it is a destructive process. As soon as we do it, we take those memory chips off, it's applying extreme amounts of heat to the motherboards to take the memory off that'll heat it. You lose a lot of the soldering and capacitors, anything that's on that motherboard. So like I said, once the memory chips are taken off, it's going to destroy the board.

MR. GUARINO: I'm sorry. They -- at the time that we actually did the chip off?

MR. GUARINO: It was myself, AG Speake, and Maggie Gaffney.

MR. GUARINO: AG Speake is -- has his own forensic company, I guess you could call it, for Berla. He -- I consider an expert in the field. Former California Highway Patrol officer that exclusively handled stolen cars.

MR. GUARINO: She was a defense's expert. She's the one who actually did the chip off, applying the heat, and taking the chips off in our presence. And she, I believe, works for -- I'm sorry the name of the company escapes me at the moment.

MR. GUARINO: As I was told by AG, there was no data that was recovered off the infotainment system or the telematics module with -- from the chip off.

MR. GUARINO: No, once she did the chip off, I've not spoken with her since.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I was.

MR. GUARINO: One was a Dell laptop, the other was an HP all in one desktop. I removed the hard drives from both systems and used --

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, they were.

MR. GUARINO: As I said, I took the hard drives out of both machines, they were imaged, and the images were loaded into Axiom to view the data that was on them.

MR. GUARINO: Yep. It's a bit for bit copy of the hard drive. Instead of us turning it on and going through it, which would change data, by taking the hard drives out and imaging them, it creates a one for one copy, so that way, we can view it without changing anything in the system.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: Yep. It's another forensic tool that we use. It can do cell phones, computers, so you use it to load the images so we can view the data.

MR. GUARINO: We were looking for a Ring video to see if either computer was used by Officer O'Keefe as a login machine to handle the account.

MR. GUARINO: Neither computer was used. One appeared to be used mostly by the kids and the other, I believe it was a laptop, was used mostly by O'Keefe, but there were no Ring logins.

MR. GUARINO: Officer O'Keefe's cell phone.

MR. GUARINO: Not that I know of.

MR. GUARINO: Not that I could tell or that I ever heard of.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: Yep. So most investigations, we get the cell phones from the scene, from a suspect, from a victim. They're put into airplane mode to preserve the data, so that way a remote wipe can't be sent to the phone from iTunes. If we can't put it into airplane mode, we'll put it into a Faraday bag which blocks the cell phone signal, and then it's brought back to the lab and put into a Faraday box, which is -- it has electrical outlets inside of it so that way we can keep the phone charged.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I did John O'Keefe's phone, Karen Read's phone, and we had two witnesses' phones, but I don't remember doing the extractions themselves.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I have.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I saw screenshots of text messages.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I was.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I didn't see any differences in those messages.

MR. GUARINO: That's correct.

MR. GUARINO: I want to say six or seven o'clock at night at the Norfolk DA's Office.

MR. GUARINO: Trooper Proctor.

MR. GUARINO: I believe it was in airplane mode. The phone was in good working order, the -- and it was placed downstairs in our lab, plugged in to keep the phone battery charged.

MR. GUARINO: I also got that from Trooper Proctor the same time as Ms. Read's phone, same condition.

MR. GUARINO: I'm sorry, who's phone?

MR. GUARINO: Oh, no, the software we use to try to bypass passwords to be able to extract the evidence, or I should say the extraction of the data to look at for evidence, her phone at that time was not supported.

MR. GUARINO: Again, made sure it was in airplane mode and just kept it plugged in until such time as the phone was supported and then we could download it.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: Yep, so GrayKey is, again, specialized hardware and software used to plug in the phones. It can do Apple or android phones to bypass passwords.

MR. GUARINO: If I knew that, I'd be a millionaire. But the -- it basically installs software onto it, and instead of when you put in ten passcodes to an iPhone, on the tenth one, if it's wrong, it kills the phone forever. This has some secret software that's able to bypass that and basically keep it in the phone with passcodes until it finds the right one.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that's correct.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, it did.

MR. GUARINO: Yeah. So we got the phone in January. It took, I believe, support came out in I want to say May or June. I don't remember the exact month. But we didn't actually get the passcode until August 16th of 2022.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, once the pass is obtained, we download the data, and then we're able to take that extraction data and then open it up in Cellebrite or Axiom or whatever tool we're going to use to view it.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: So what do we do with the extractions once we go to open them?

MR. GUARINO: So GrayKey will pull the extraction. Well, it just -- once the codes received, again, uses its software, pulls the data out, puts it into an encrypted it's MD five or shy(ph). It's an encryption key that has a -- it's a unique key that so if you change anything inside that ZIP file, it would change the encryption number to show that something was tampered with. We take that encrypted ZIP file and we open it up in the software, and that's able to say, you know, the call logs, the chats, the photos, time, the whole timeline of the phone.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, two other people.

MR. GUARINO: The director of our lab, Samantha Voat and Trooper Connor Keefe.

MR. GUARINO: If they're in the digital evidence lab, no. Once the data is extracted from them, normally, we give them back to the investigator or return to family, so that would be the only time that they would have access to the devices, or unless we kept them in the lab for -- just for, I don't want to say safekeeping, but just for storage reasons.

MR. GUARINO: No, sir.

MR. GUARINO: That's correct.

MR. GUARINO: Yeah. So again, normally, the investigators for the homicides know far more information about the crime and what occurred. So if need be, I'll load the phone up for them. They can go through it because they know what they're looking for. If they ask me, I'm happy to go through if they can say, you know, I'm looking for calls between this time period, or, you know, GPS locations, things like that.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I was.

MR. GUARINO: We notified our supervisors, and we did not look at her extraction until the privileged communications could be removed, and then we could, again, go back and re-inspect the data.

MR. GUARINO: It took months. I don't think we got it back from the AG's office until later, I don't know, springtime of 2023-ish.

MR. GUARINO: GrayKey, Windows 10, and then Cellebrite Physical Analyzer, and Axiom - their program. Magnet's program.

MR. GUARINO: So they both do great work with, you know, decoding the data. I've noticed that Axiom does a better job at pulling GPS spots because it gives a speed and an estimated range of how strong the GPS signals are. As opposed to Cellebrite, they give native locations, but they don't have that extra data with it. So I like to look at both tools to make sure that I'm seeing everything that I need to.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I did.

MR. GUARINO: I didn't see that many, maybe a handful, showing different spots in Canton, but nothing that stood out to me.

MR. GUARINO: I can't say. I don't -- I didn't see anything like I said that stuck out to me. Normally, if the GPS points aren't there, then location services are probably turned off.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, if it's turned on.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that's correct.

MR. GUARINO: There's quite a bit, especially on January 29.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, sir.

MR. GUARINO: That's correct.

MR. GUARINO: So I basically went point by point through his report to confirm or deny if what he was placing in there was true.

MR. GUARINO: It was mostly incorrect.

MR. GUARINO: So he states that there's a Google search that's done at 2:27 in the morning that immediately stuck out to me, because when I went back and looked, that file that was parsed was not from the database that should have showed searches. This came from the session state tabs for Safari, which is a big red flag. It also came from a WAL file, which is a dropping ground for where data is put before it's actually put into the main database itself. And then once it reaches a certain point, that data is automatically deleted by the device, not by a user, which Mr. Green had stated that a search was done and then it was purposely deleted. There was also items regarding phone calls being deleted. Again, they came from a WAL file. Looking at it, again, it's stored in the Knowledge C, the main database. It's all stored in the biome showing in the extraction which is another storage area that Apple is using. Again, nothing. Most of the stuff that I was reading in his report was either incorrectly, I don't know, written down, or he's interpreted it incorrectly.

MR. GUARINO: Yeah, so he stated that Ms. McCabe had deleted 18 phone calls from the morning after John O'Keefe's body was found. Looking at the data from her call log, those calls, while they do show marked as deleted, again, they come from the WAL file, and they're also located in two other parts of the database. Again, as a user of an iPhone, you can't go in and just delete these files. They're handled by the operating system. It's impossible.

MR. GUARINO: Yeah. So as I said, these files are dropping grounds. So when you're using your apps, using the phone, it takes that data, puts it into this WAL file until it you either close the app, or you shut down the phone or it reaches a certain number of data in the phone, that WAL file will automatically delete from the phone. So this can be on a first in/first out basis. Again, like I said, it could be when data reaches a certain level, but those calls that are being marked as deleted, Cellebrite's saying it's -- it doesn't mean the user deleted them. It just means they're being removed from the WAL file.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, so the main database of the iPhones is the Knowledge C database. They're also using Biome and then if you're using the newest software now, it's another area I won't bore you with, but depending on the iOS you're using for the phone, it's going to depend on where that data is being stored.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that was another one.

MR. GUARINO: Yeah, so Mr. Green was report said that he located a deleted screenshot of Brian Albert's contact that was in her phone. The contact for Brian Albert was still in her phone, not deleted, so I don't know, maybe she just deleted the screenshot.

MR. GUARINO: I export it all out to a PDF so I could view it, and again, like I said, there's I think eleven hundred and four phone calls from going all the way back to October of 2020, I want to say. And phone calls, FaceTime, they're all -- the calls are there, all the records, and they're all stored in different areas of the phone. The only ones that show the WAL file deleted were the ones from the 29th going up to the end, towards the end of the day on the 29th.

MR. GUARINO: Data that's stored in the call store dash SQLite database.

MR. GUARINO: So again, yeah, that database where the call logs are sent, it's going to have a corresponding WAL file where the data is going to be put temporarily and then, as I said, it gets automatically deleted by the iOS by the operating software. It's not user enabled.

MR. GUARINO: I don't believe they were. And I actually will say one of the phone calls was from the actual main call store database that could have been user deleted if, but again, it's in two other spots in the operating system, so I don't know how or why the iOS stores it the way it does and then marks what.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I was able to.

MR. GUARINO: Okay.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: The first page is Facebook Messenger chats between Karen Read and John O'Keefe.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, it is.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I did.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, it is.

MR. GUARINO: Okay.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I do.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, it is.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: The blue bubbles will be from Ms. Read and the green bubbles are from Officer O'Keefe.

MR. GUARINO: So the blue bubbles is Karen Read and 1/28/2022, at 3:30 p.m. "Hello." John says, "Hi," at 3:35 p.m.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I believe so.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: These are the native chats, native messages from John O'Keefe and Karen Read.

MR. GUARINO: Correct.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that's correct.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that's correct.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: At 9:49 a.m., Karen says, "You've really hurt me this time." 10:02 a.m., I'm sorry. This is -- I'm sorry. It's kind of hard to read. I'm sorry. This has been an issue with me for eight years. It physically hurts me to see everyone else in their -- in their life do things for them, and I've forced to always be the bad guy. At 10:09 a.m., Karen says, "I am not the same as everybody else. Most of the time, I try to do what is healthy/smart for them. More importantly, I try to support you and what you need. You just lashed out at me and said terrible things. I don't know -- I don't know how you've gone to this point with me when I'm just trying to -- trying my hardest. You made the point -- you made your point and continued to beat me down. I have a lot going on, too. Physically, I'm falling apart and trying to get answers and help."

MR. GUARINO: Okay.

MR. GUARINO: All right.

MR. GUARINO: Karen says to John at 1:21 p.m. on the 28th, "Maybe you can call someone."

MR. GUARINO: On the 28th at 1:46 p.m., John says, "Like who?" And at 1:47 p.m., "What time are you coming here?" And then there is at 2:05 there's a message, but no content.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, 2:06 from Karen, "I don't know what time. I feel kind of out of it. Just trying to clear my head." 2:06 p.m., John writes back, "Okay." 2:06 p.m., again. Karen says, "Text me later when you guys settle in later." I'm sorry. "Text me when you guys settle in later." John says, "Sure," at 2:06 p.m. again. Karen says at 2:16, "I feel pretty shitty about this," excuse me. "I feel pretty shitty about how this morning went down. I know you said sorry, but it really stung, especially when I've been trying pretty hard lately. I feel like a loser, turning around, just coming back over after everything you said."

MR. GUARINO: Okay. At 2:17 p.m. John says, "Not sure what else you want me to do. I said I'm sorry, and I was out of line. If you prefer to stay home, I totally get it." Karen replies back at 2:17, "Things in my own life have been difficult, too, you know." John writes back at 2:17, "I know." At 2:25 p.m., "Tell me if you're interested in someone else. Can't think of any other reason you've been like this," from Karen.

MR. GUARINO: At 2:25, John responds back, "Nope. Things haven't been great between us for a while. Ever consider that?" That was at 2:26. At 2:29 he writes, "Kids are here. Not in the mood to talk."

MR. GUARINO: "So you're not into it anymore. That's fine, but I don't want to keep trying and you keep treating me like this," at 2:29 p.m.

MR. GUARINO: Yep. Ms. Read says, "I'm trying to hug and kiss you this morning and you whack me in the face with a pillow," at 2:29. At 2:30 she says, "Last night, you're basically like, yeah, what about, when we talk about the future. So why don't you just admit you're not into it so much anymore?" At 2:30 -- oh, sorry.

MR. GUARINO: I was going to say at 2:30, John says, "Not how it went down, but okay."

MR. GUARINO: "Can you please admit your head is out of the game -- out of the game with us."

MR. GUARINO: Okay. At 2:32 p.m., "Sick of always arguing, fighting. It's been weekly for several months now. So, yeah, I'm not as quick to jump back into being lovey dovey as you apparently," from John. And then John again at 2:32, "Oh, my God. Stop calling."

MR. GUARINO: Okay.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I was.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: (Witness complies.) Okay.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, it's John O'Keefe's call log.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, from the 28th at 9:19 a.m., to the 29th at 6:03 a.m.

MR. GUARINO: (Witness complies.)

MR. GUARINO: Yes, this is Karen Read's call log from January 29th at 12:33 a.m. to January 29th at 6:03 a.m.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that is correct.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that is correct.

MR. GUARINO: There's 18 calls from -- yeah, 9:19 to about 2:59 p.m.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that is correct.

MR. GUARINO: Eleven.

MR. GUARINO: Four.

MR. GUARINO: Three.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, she does.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, at about 3:00 p.m. on the 28th. Let me double check.

MR. GUARINO: Okay.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, so at 2:32 p.m. she says, "Why would you start with me this morning?" And then followed up by at 2:33, "You're setting me up to fail."

MR. GUARINO: Ms. Read says, "You start of," excuse me, "You start a number of fights from your end, John," and that's at 2:33. At 2:33 John writes back, "I've explained it a few times already, not doing it again."

MR. GUARINO: "So you're not into this anymore?" And then John says, "Not into fighting all the time, correct." That's at 2:34 p.m.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, at 2:34, Ms. Read says, "If you tell me you're interested in someone else, you will never hear from me again. You can have all the space in the world." John writes back that there's no -- no content at 2:34. And then at 2:34 she says, "Then stop starting with me."

MR. GUARINO: At 2:34 he writes back, "I'm not answering. Stop calling."

MR. GUARINO: Ms. Read says, "Can you please answer after how you treated me earlier?" John responds back at 2:35, " (c) is right here." Ms. Read says, "You're starting a rager with me out of nowhere. And then you tell me you're sick of fighting with me," at 2:35. She writes at 2:38, "I'm going to grab a drink in a bit."

MR. GUARINO: Yep. She says, "Can you answer, please," at 2:38. He writes back at 2:39, "No, Karen. Not sure why you need to announce that you're going drinking but have fun." Karen writes back at 2:40, "Seeing if you want to meet me later. Can you please call me right after that?"

MR. GUARINO: John writes back at 2:40, "Have to take him to the doctor. He has practice." Ms. Read writes back, "Yeah, five minutes." John writes back at 2:43, "My father just walked in." Karen writes back, "Okay. Can you please call me for two minutes," at 2:44.

MR. GUARINO: At 2:44 John writes back, "Not right now." Karen writes back, "I'm there when anyone else needs me," at 2:44, and at 2:46, "Yes, John, you gave me utter grief this morning. I'd like you to call me for a mins."

MR. GUARINO: Yep. And at 2:47, "I've been trying to get over the hump with our with is arguing, and now you're telling me you're not into things. If you don't want to fight weekly, but fly off the handle at 8:00 a.m. with me, like you're setting me up to fail."

MR. GUARINO: Yep. At 7:41 p.m., Karen writes, "Okay. Let me know if you end up leaving." John writes back at 7:42, "Why? Now you're not coming?" Karen writes back, "I'm waiting for the plumber. Actually think he's in the driveway," 7:42. John says, 7:43, "We're taking Mike's car, so I'm relying on you for a ride home if he leaves." Karen writes back at 7:43, "He's not going home after?" John writes back at 7:43, "Eight on a Friday. He may have to get Michael," and, "You have a plumber coming over at 8:00. Knowing me and Papa, could have handled it. Good luck," and that was at 7:44.

MR. GUARINO: Okay.

MR. GUARINO: Yep. 8:29 p.m., "Yeah, but he lives right down the road." John writes back at 8:30, "Karen, this storm is going to be intense. Can't drive." 8:30 she writes back, "Okay, well, if he can't, he can't." John writes back, "I'll do it Monday." Karen responds at 8:31, "Huh? I better not still have this problem on Monday." John writes back, "Plan on being there." Karen writes back at 8:32, "I'd like to know I could take a hot shower here if I need to." John writes back, "Figured you'd be in Canton until Monday."

MR. GUARINO: "John, I'm getting off my phone. Let me know what you're doing." Karen writes back at 8:33, "I think the four of us together is toxic to this relationship. Would like to limit it," and says, "You've said so yourself for probably a year now," and John writes back at 8:33, "Blizzard tomorrow. Nobody is going anywhere."

MR. GUARINO: Okay. Karen says, "Maybe I'll come back late tonight. Bad snow is in the early a.m." That's at 8:35, and again, 8:35, "I'll head up there in a few minutes. Let me know if you leave." John replies back, "Sure." And then the next one's not until 12:55 in a.m. on the 29th, "I'm going home."

MR. GUARINO: Yes, that is correct.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, at 12:55, again, "See you later." At 1:02, "Your kids are cucking alone." 1:29 at 1:04am, "I'm back in Mansfield. The kids are home alone."

MR. GUARINO: Yes.

MR. GUARINO: (Witness complies.) Okay.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, I do.

MR. GUARINO: The single page is Karen Read to Laura Sullivan phone calls, or, I should say, yep, calls from Laura Sullivan to Karen Read, and the other one is Karen Read and Laura Sullivan's chat messages.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, sir.

MR. GUARINO: Yes, these are Karen Read and Erin O'Keefe phone call.

MR. GUARINO: Yes.