Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveJennifer McCabe — Redirect/Recross
658 linesJUDGE CANNONE: All right. So counsel is ten minutes late. I just as I was walking out here, was told that the week Commonwealth needs to see me.
MR. BRENNAN: May I be heard?
JUDGE CANNONE: Oh, hold on. Ms. Read's not here.
(Defendant is present with counsel.)
JUDGE CANNONE: Counsel wanted to see me here or at sidebar?
MR. BRENNAN: I have no preference.
JUDGE CANNONE: If it's something to be done in open court, go right ahead.
MR. BRENNAN: So we had mentioned earlier at the end of Ms. McCabe's testimony, I have clips that I would like to play. There is a dispute regarding two of them and had given previous notice to the defense. They would like different content in than I would, and I would hope to have a Court's ruling before I played them.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So I received an envelope, court copy clip seventeen was the only one I was given.
MR. BRENNAN: That's a new one. The other ones were previously turned over to the Court.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: The ones we had a dispute on are clip 13 and clip 15.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. So I viewed the other clips. There's an objection to 13 and 15?
MS. LITTLE: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Is there an objection -- all right. Let's play them. They're quick, right?
MR. BRENNAN: Yes, they are.
JUDGE CANNONE: Play them very quickly.
MS. LITTLE: Your Honor, just to clarify, it's not that we object to playing them, it's that they're incomplete. So she didn't finish her answer. So we're just asking it be extended so she can actually give a complete answer. So we produced alternative clips. So there's two for each, thirteen and clip fifteen.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So the Commonwealth gets to play what they want, and then you play yours at some point, too. All right.
MR. BRENNAN: If we don't have time, I can wait to have a hearing because I don't think the defense can play its self-serving statement because I think --
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. I haven't seen it. I saw clip 17. I have no problem with clip 17 coming in.
MR. BRENNAN: I don't think they have an objection to 17. The ones that are objectionable, I know we were pressed on Friday. I can hold them until next week until the dispute becomes more clear for the Court.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: Because it sounds like it's going to take more time than I thought.
JUDGE CANNONE: So I need what you have, Ms. Little.
MS. LITTLE: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: I need that to review that this weekend.
MS. LITTLE: Understood.
JUDGE CANNONE: Anything else?
MR. BRENNAN: The second issue is I should approach sidebar.
(Sidebar commences:
MR. BRENNAN: In questioning Ms. McCabe, Mr. Jackson asked her about her relationship with Trooper Proctor, including a number of phone calls, and he included a number of phone calls that she had with him in July. She met with Lieutenant Tully and that was part of the questioning. The purpose of meeting with Lieutenant Tully and having those phone calls in July was because the ongoing harassment she was receiving as a result of being a witness in this case. And so I believe it's opened the door for her to be able to talk about why she had this ongoing relationship with Trooper Proctor, and also why she was being interviewed by Trooper Tully in July. I'm mindful that I'm not trying to run through the door and attribute bad acts to the defense, but it puts in context why that relationship continued. It's a centerpiece of their defense that anything Trooper Proctor has touched has been tainted, and that's the implication I believe they'll argue relative to Ms. McCabe. And so I think she should be able to go in to it a little bit.
JUDGE CANNONE: Briefly.
MR. JACKSON: That's not at all what I asked. I asked very specifically tell me about the content. The only reason I asked the question is because she denied having met him. It doesn't matter the context in which she met him. She simply said, "I have never him before."
JUDGE CANNONE: Are you going to focus on the number of times that she has spoken with him at some point in your closing argument?
MR. JACKSON: Probably not. The fact that she simply said, "I've never met him before," that's the key. It doesn't matter if she had met him to go to lunch or met him to deal with harassment or met him to look at taillights.
JUDGE CANNONE: No, that's not the argument I heard. It's the number of calls to Proctor to Tully that's what you're saying?
MR. BRENNAN: Yes, and the length of the relationship that extended past any investigation, but all those calls in July and after were because of intimidation of witness complaints. Not because of this case, and the jury should know that.
MR. JACKSON: And the only calls that I showed, very specifically, were up through March of 2022, before any harassment had ever taken place.
JUDGE CANNONE: You --
MR. BRENNAN: He only showed those --
JUDGE CANNONE: -- mentioned you saw --
MR. BRENNAN: -- 23.
MR. JACKSON: Which is one she was interviewed and said I'd never met him before. This was just an issue that have nothing to do with content.
JUDGE CANNONE: Well, I need the transcript because I didn't see the opening of the door on this. I had concerns on something else, but is that it?
MR. BRENNAN: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: So I need the transcript and maybe you call Ms. McCabe back again on Monday. Sorry, Chrissy, I need that transcript. All right?
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: I took it as the number of calls and the time. I wasn't paying attention to specifically opening the door on this. So if that's the argument, I need to take a closer look.
MR. BRENNAN: I understand.
JUDGE CANNONE: So we'll do -- hopefully this is very short. You cannot be ten minutes late again, especially on a Monday -- on a Friday afternoon where we gave you an extended break this morning to get records for you that you could have got yesterday when we were in session.
MR. JACKSON: My apologies.
JUDGE CANNONE: It's got to stop. The jury has been waiting for 15, 20 minutes.
MR. JACKSON: Understood.
JUDGE CANNONE: We'll bring them right in.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: Hopefully it's a very short redirect.
MR. BRENNAN: Understood. There are some text messages I'm going to read.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm sorry?
MR. BRENNAN: There are some --
JUDGE CANNONE: Come up.
MR. BRENNAN: I'm sorry.
JUDGE CANNONE: Bring them up anyways.
MR. BRENNAN: I'm sorry.
JUDGE CANNONE: That's okay.
MR. BRENNAN: We had the issue regarding state of mind. I'm not going to look to resolve it the text messages, but there's a series that put those in context and I expect I'm going to ask her to read those text messages. That will take the most time during redirect examination.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. So on the videos that I watched again yesterday, I watched everything that's been given to me, I didn't have a problem with them coming in. So if you want to put them in over the objection, than the defense can give me what you want to add, and I'll have a decision for you by Monday whether that comes in or not.
MR. BRENNAN: So the two in dispute I won't put in until you make decision, and the other ones I will put in.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. What I'm saying is you can put those two subject to whether or not they can be extended. It's up to you --
MR. BRENNAN: I don't want to take that chance --
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. It's up to you.
MR. BRENNAN: -- if the Court doesn't agree.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: So I'll wait on those two.
JUDGE CANNONE: Ms. Little, what do I have in my hand?
MS. LITTLE: This is clip 15. We don't have the recording of the other clip that you all proposed, and but we have it as a transcript and I gave you a copy of that.
MR. BRENNAN: The ones that are in dispute I will not put in today.
MS. LITTLE: Okay. I just wanted to give a copy to the Court.
JUDGE CANNONE: So this is 15.
MS. LITTLE: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: Would you mark that for me, please? And we'll mark that for identification.
MR. JACKSON: These will go in after Ms. McCabe is finished?
MR. BRENNAN: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right.
end of sidebar.)
(Whereupon Exhibit O, Redacted Set of Photos of Katie McLaughlin and Caitlin Albert, was marked for identification.)
JUDGE CANNONE: I was just given a copy of what the defense has handed to clip 15 for my review this weekend. It's not an exhibit. It's for identification.
(Whereupon Exhibit P, Redacted Set of Photos of Katie McLaughlin and Caitlin Albert, was marked for identification.)
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Is the jury ready?
(Jury in.)
JUDGE CANNONE: Can we bring in Ms. McCabe, please? Jurors, I know I said it was a 45 minutes lunch. I apologize. No one intended to waste your time like this, particularly when we don't have much time left. Ms. McCabe, please.
(Witness present.)
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Whenever you're ready, Mr. Brennan.
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENNAN:
MR. BRENNAN: Good afternoon, Mrs. McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: Good afternoon.
MR. BRENNAN: I want you to briefly tell your memory of the weather when you first arrived at Fairview, when you left at Fairview, and when you returned the next morning a little after 6:00 a.m.
MS. MCCABE: Okay. When I arrived at Fairview on the early hours of the 29th, the snow was falling, you know, it just started to fall. It was starting to stick to the street and onto the windshields. When I left Fairview, it had, you know, accumulated more where my husband had to wipe the windows. And then the following morning, when we were driving there, it was dark and the snow was like coming at the car. Like, it was very hard to see.
MR. BRENNAN: When you returned the next morning, we've seen video from the dash came. The elements, the visibility, is that fairly depicted in that dash cam?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I mean, obviously, it was lit more because of the lighting and the spotlights, et cetera.
MR. BRENNAN: From the moment that you first saw John and until you went into your sister's home, is it fair to say a number of different first responders arrived?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: When the first responders arrived, did you see a number of different vehicles arrive?
MS. MCCABE: I did, yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Did any of them have their sirens on?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I recall.
MR. BRENNAN: The ambulance, the fire truck, police cars, do you remember ever any siren on at all?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I recall, no.
MR. BRENNAN: Your sister and brother-in-law, you described how you went in the house and woke them up. They never came up before you woke them up?
MS. MCCABE: No, they didn't.
MR. BRENNAN: There was a house right next to where you found John before 34, do you know what address that is?
MS. MCCABE: I would assume it's 32.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you ever see anybody come out of 32 Fairview and come over to John and the scene to help out?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: Across the street, there's a house that's in between 32 and 34, across the street?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you ever see anybody come out of that house and offer assistance and help?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: There's a house right across the street from 34 Fairview, isn't there?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And did anybody, anybody, ever come out of that house come over assist?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: When you were trying to help John that moment, had you ever been trained in emergency aid?
MS. MCCABE: Probably 25, 30 years ago.
MR. BRENNAN: Your state of mind, best describe how you were feeling at that moment as far as your focus and what was going through your mind.
MS. MCCABE: I was shocked, confused, nervous, scared, anxious. My friend was lying there on the ground. I had no idea what happened. All I wanted to do was get help for John as fast as I could.
MR. BRENNAN: You saw on the dash cam, you spoke to a number of different people in law enforcement?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: In fact, during that day a number of different people from law enforcement, did they call you?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that. Move along, too, Mr. Brennan, please.
MR. BRENNAN: Did a number of people call you from law enforcement that day?
MS. MCCABE: On the day of the 29th?
MR. BRENNAN: Yes.
MS. MCCABE: Michael Proctor called me.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you speak to law enforcement after that date?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Were you asked to engage in interviews?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Were you asked to testify in front of grand juries?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Were you asked to come to court to testify?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you ever once refuse to speak to the police?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you ever once refuse to testify?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: When you were speaking to the police on that dash cam -- speaking on the dash cam, why were you speaking to the police?
MS. MCCABE: Well, each officer that arrived had a set of questions of who it was, what happened, etc. So I was answering all the questions because my main focus was John.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you ever try to be evasive with the police?
MS. MCCABE: No, I told him everything I knew.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you ever try to avoid speaking to them?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: To the form.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you ever hold anything back from the police when you spoke to them?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that, and then let's move on, Mr. Brennan, please.
MS. MCCABE: No, I didn't.
MR. BRENNAN: When you interviewed with many different law enforcement or people involved in this case, were you ever given an opportunity to review somebody else's report after it was written and provided editory or input?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: When you testified, are you testifying from what somebody wrote that interpreted what you said months or years ago, or are you testifying from your own memory?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: I'm testifying from my own memory.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you call 911?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: In that morning when you called 911 -- well, let me ask you. Do wear an Apple Watch?
MS. MCCABE: I do have one, yes.
MR. BRENNAN: When you were speaking with 911 the morning or during that event, how did you feel?
MS. MCCABE: Extremely nervous, anxious, scared, uncertain, panicked.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you think your heartbeat was up?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: At 2:27 the night before or around that time when you were looking up Hockomock before you went to bed, were you in the same state of mind of fear and panic, or were you in a very different state of mind?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Strike the fear and panic. You can answer that. Are you in the same mind or different?
MS. MCCABE: Different.
MR. BRENNAN: What was your state of mind at that time?
MS. MCCABE: I was relaxed, just playing on my phone, looking at things before I went to bed.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you think your heartbeat was as elevated that evening as it was the next morning?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. BRENNAN: When you made the search for how long to die in the cold, or hos long to die in cold, is that something you thought of yourself?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: Why did you do it?
MS. MCCABE: Ms. Read asked me to Google it.
MR. BRENNAN: And when was that?
MS. MCCABE: That was in the morning after we found him.
MR. BRENNAN: And had you ever attempted either of those searches before Ms. Read asked you to do that?
MS. MCCABE: No, I didn't.
MR. BRENNAN: You were asked questions about the next day when you visited the O'Keefe home and you read some records. Do you remember those questions?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you remember going to the O'Keefe home?
MS. MCCABE: I do, yes.
MR. BRENNAN: You went with who?
MS. MCCABE: With Kerry and our two daughters.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you remember how many hours you spent with the O'Keefe family?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember how many hours. I would say a few.
MR. BRENNAN: Was it over three or four?
MS. MCCABE: It could've been. I'm not sure.
MR. BRENNAN: What is the reason that you spent so much time with the O'Keefe home the next day?
MS. MCCABE: We went over to offer support, love, comfort, to be with them.
MR. BRENNAN: You weren't avoiding them, were you?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. BRENNAN: After you left the O'Keefe home, and reading the records, I don't know if this is your memory, I would suggest it was 5:12. Do you remember going to Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: I remember driving by Fairview on the way to Mike Lank's.
MR. BRENNAN: When you what to Fairview, you were asked questions about when you stopped by whether that meant you went in or outside. Do you remember whether you went in or were outside?
MS. MCCABE: We never went in.
MR. BRENNAN: Have you seen your phone records that there are no calls to your sister when you went by Fairview at that time?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: I haven't, no.
MR. BRENNAN: And when you went by, you were asked about that. In fact, you had been asked about that before, hadn't you, whether you stopped by?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And Attorney Jackson showed you part of that statement?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you -- when you were saying that's part of the statement, did you read the whole statement to yourself?
MS. MCCABE: I did.
MR. BRENNAN: And if you could put that in completeness, had you under oath talked about the fact that you went by that day?
MS. MCCABE: I'm confused by your question.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Page 181 to 182.
MR. BRENNAN: You were shown page 181 and then 182?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And so when you were asked about that before, had you in fact offered under oath you did go by Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: When you stopped by Fairview, according to the questions you were asked or the records you were asked to read, it was four minutes you stopped by Fairview. Does that sound like your memory?
MS. MCCABE: No, I know we drove by, slowed down. We were looking outside.
MR. BRENNAN: Why did you want to go back to the very scene that you had seen that morning?
MS. MCCABE: I think with Kerry and I just -- I'm not really sure. I think we just drove down.
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So your answer is not really sure.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question.
MR. BRENNAN: And then according to the records that were read to you, you went to Detective Lank's house?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And you were at that address for about 40 minutes, 50 minutes?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: You were read or shown certain text messages between you and some of your family?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Was that a complete listing of the text messages in the order that were on your phone?
MS. MCCABE: I have a lot of text messages of them on my phone, yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Were some missing from what you were shown?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. You were asked about your state of mind. I'm going to ask you about some of those text messages in a minute. You were asked about calls and text messages to John O'Keefe?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Have you ever inadvertently called anybody before on your iPhone?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, many times.
MR. BRENNAN: And you were asked whether or not you remembered or knew that those calls were made to Mr. O'Keefe?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you purposely make those calls?
MS. MCCABE: No, I do not believe so.
MR. BRENNAN: If you inadvertently called on purpose, it wouldn't be inadvertent, would it?
MS. MCCABE: True.
MR. BRENNAN: John never -- did John ever answer any of your calls after that 12:18 call?
MS. MCCABE: No, he didn't.
MR. BRENNAN: And when you're reaching out to him, did you reach out to him the next morning after you heard from the defendant?
MS. MCCABE: I did, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: No, next question, Mr. Brennan.
MR. BRENNAN: Why were you reaching out to him?
MS. MCCABE: Because I was trying to get in touch with him because Ms. Read said he didn't come home.
MR. BRENNAN: You were asked about your state of mind over the next couple of days?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And I'd like to ask you about some of the text messages reflecting your full state of mind over the next couple of days?
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may we approach, please?
JUDGE CANNONE: This has to be really brief.
(Sidebar commences:
JUDGE CANNONE: How many text messages are you --
MR. BRENNAN: There's a lot, 30, 40. Your Honor, I'm trying to be expedient. In fact, my redirect I was going to spend 20 to 30 minutes. It's done other than this. I understand the Court's pressure, but they spent days on Mrs. McCabe. I received the text messages they were going to introduce this morning. I've been working throughout court and the lunch to try to put this together, and it's not an orderly fashion because I just haven't had the time because I just received them today.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So there are messages that are in a Cellebrite report.
MR. BRENNAN: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: And everybody's had this Cellebrite report?
MR. BRENNAN: Everybody's had the report.
JUDGE CANNONE: Do you need to go through them with Ms. McCabe?
MR. BRENNAN: Well, I think I do because I want her to explain in context the text messages that they put selectively on the screen. When they put them on the screen, some were left out before, after, during, and so it really was a select presentation. And if I had time, I would have made this a lot more on point, but I didn't have the time to do that.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, they've had -- the Commonwealth has had those exact text messages since the trial of last year. We put the exact, same text messages in front of this witness last year, and asked the same questions. The text message -- first of all, I don't believe -- I don't want to get out over my skis, but I think Ms. Little will back this up. I don't believe we have this document. Second, a quick brief look at the pink highlights, and Mr. Brennan was very generous and gave us his notebook to look at what he's going to be utilizing, it looks like text messages between this witness and (c) , and this witness Kerry Roberts, none of which I put into evidence. The text messages that we did provide, clearly, they're not every text message between the group chat -- the group chat and/or Nicole, obviously. I mean, the first text was about Tom Brady retiring, but they were not select and cherry picked. They were in order in the way that they were texted back and forth for the dates that were in question. This is completely improper in terms of trying to get her state of mind in as it relates to those text messages. If he has something before or after --
JUDGE CANNONE: Why do you need the (c) ? Why do you need the (c) ? Why do you need the (c) and Kerry Roberts?
MR. BRENNAN: The reason they selected the text messages in the way they did is they're trying to suggest that she's a leader in a conspiracy. That's the only reason I introduced them.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: And when you understand what she was going through, you will better appreciate the text messages that they introduced and her state of mind. For example, they tried to suggest there's a conspiracy between Kerry Roberts and this witness, and that's why they do timelines, and that's why they met at certain spots. When you read these, "Every time I close my eyes, it's all I see. I feel like I'm going to vomit. I just can't even."
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: I mean, this tells the story.
JUDGE CANNONE: That's admissible.
MR. BRENNAN: On how they're -- there's tons of these, though. "I can't stop seeing him in the snow."
JUDGE CANNONE: What's the date and time?
MR. BRENNAN: "Jen, this is awful." These are all in the same timeframe. These are January 29, January 29, a number of them from February 1. These are on from January 29, January 29, all the stuff with her sister all January 29, and I tried to minimize it the best I could. This one is January 31. And these are January 31. And so the reason they made these decisions -- for example, they were worried about talking to each other about information because the press was all over the Albert front yard, and people were saying the press is there, the stories are coming out.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: I mean, I don't want to belabor this, but.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to allow it, but you say you've never seen these texts?
MS. LITTLE: I just don't have this copy that they've given us in terms of --
JUDGE CANNONE: But you've had the extraction of Ms. McCabe's phone for a few years, right?
MS. LITTLE: Well, I just have two minutes to look at what they're propounding to produce for this purpose.
JUDGE CANNONE: You have the text messages around the same time, right?
MS. LITTLE: I just got it two minutes ago from Mr. Brennan.
MR. JACKSON: The answer is we don't know. We don't recognize this document, this particular extraction, but that doesn't mean we don't have them, and I'm not suggesting, Mr. Brennan, that we don't have them. I just don't know that we recognize this particular document.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So we don't have to have the document. We have the extraction of the phone and we know what messages were on the phone. Your experts dealt with messages that are on the phone, right? Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
JUDGE CANNONE: So start on the 29th and see where we go.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, my objection is still if there was context under the rule of completeness, if there was context with the group, same group chat, that would be one thing. These are not. These are specifically text message of (c) . She's a 12-year-old. Of course they're going to be different in context.
JUDGE CANNONE: So your objection is on the record. Get started, Mr. Brennan.
MR. BRENNAN: I have a copy. Can I leave it with the witness to make this go more quickly?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: One other thing. The defense is asking for a specific instruction that this is not offered for the truth of the matter asserted.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to give the same instruction I gave on those.
MR. JACKSON: Before he --
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Before he reads them. Okay. Thank you.
end of sidebar.)
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Jurors, you are about to hear some evidence, and remember I told you this morning before you can consider any electronic communication in your deliberations, you must first find it is more likely true than not that the person who authored or created or sent, transmitted this communication was in fact the person alleged to have done so. If you do not find it is more likely true than not that the person alleged to have transmitted, created these messages, then you may not consider the electronic communication in deciding this case. And remember, what you're about to hear, you're not to use for the truth of the statement. It goes simply to the state of mind of Ms. McCabe at the time of the message. Go ahead, Mr. Brennan.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. May I approach with a copy for the witness?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: When law enforcement asks for your phone, was there any requirement that you give that to them?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you voluntarily consent to give your enter phone to law enforcement?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. BRENNAN: I hand you a document that reflects your text messages from that morning and the next day. You were asked about some of them on the screen, do you remember that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And you were asked how that affected your state of mind and the decisions you were making, correct? I want to read along and I'll indicate if you look at the number on the left, and then I'll read it and you let me know if I read it accurately.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: Starting at number 17, there's a phone call saying, "Please answer." Who are you calling?
MS. MCCABE: I'm sorry --
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: This would be the number, this would be the calling, and this would be the message.
MS. MCCABE: Okay. So that's John O'Keefe. Sorry.
MR. BRENNAN: Number 17, the phone call, "Please answer." Who are you calling?
MS. MCCABE: John O'Keefe.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you know at that point where he is?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: 4:59:49, number 18, "Karen is worried. We need to find you."
MS. MCCABE: John O'Keefe.
MR. BRENNAN: 5:0:4:40, number 19, "Please answer so I know you're okay." Who are you calling?
MS. MCCABE: John O'Keefe.
MR. BRENNAN: Number 26, 5:15:41, 129. "Okay. I'm trying to call people. I'll be in touch soon." Do you know who you're calling?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recognize the number.
MR. BRENNAN: What are you thinking at this point?
MS. MCCABE: I'm trying to find people. I'm trying to call people so that I can try and find John.
MR. BRENNAN: Number 31, 5:22:57, 129. "Okay. I tried to be. Okay. I just talked to her." What are you are referring to?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know whose number this is.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. At this point in the morning when you were making these phone calls, do you know where John is?
MS. MCCABE: No, I have no idea where he is.
MR. BRENNAN: Turn to number 48, 1/29/22 at 8:44, you're texting, "Any update?" What is your state of mind?
MS. MCCABE: Which number is this?
MR. BRENNAN: Number 48.
MS. MCCABE: Forty-eight. I believe that maybe Kerry Roberts, and I'm trying to get an update from the hospital.
MR. BRENNAN: You were asked about your relationship with Kerry Roberts. At that time before that night, how many times had you met her?
MS. MCCABE: Once.
MR. BRENNAN: And you said in the moment, did that relationship change?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, instantly.
MR. BRENNAN: Was it from collusion?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. BRENNAN: Let me ask you, number 160, this is 1/29 at 2:00 in that afternoon, is that 160?
MS. MCCABE: Sorry.
MR. BRENNAN: It's okay. One-sixty, do you see that?
MS. MCCABE: Mm-hmm.
MR. BRENNAN: "I can't stop seeing him in the snow. Jen, this is awful." Who is that from?
MS. MCCABE: Kerry.
MR. BRENNAN: Is your state of mind collusion?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it. Don't ask again, please, Mr. Brennan.
MR. BRENNAN: One sixty-eight at 1/29/22 at 2:04:32, you're calling Ms. Roberts. "Every time I close my eyes, it's all I see. I feel like I'm going to vomit. I just can't even. I know how close you two were. I can't imagine how hard the situation is for you." Does this reflect your state of mind that day?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, we have to approach for a second.
JUDGE CANNONE: Your objection is noted. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, we need to approach on this particular text.
JUDGE CANNONE: Come to sidebar. Folks, I apologize for this.
(Sidebar commences:
JUDGE CANNONE: I need to see the text. I need to see the text. What text is it?
MR. BRENNAN: To Kerry.
MR. JACKSON: The text is from Kerry.
MR. BRENNAN: What's that?
MR. JACKSON: It's from Kerry. It's authored by Kerry.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. My mistake, I'll fix it.
MS. LITTLE: It's the last two.
MR. JACKSON: The last two texts were from Kerry. I objected; it was overruled. It happened again.
MR. BRENNAN: I will fix it. I had it to Kerry, my mistake. It's from Kerry. It says outgoing. It says outgoing. It's not --
JUDGE CANNONE: Which number is this?
MR. BRENNAN: This is the one that they objected to.
JUDGE CANNONE: Which number is Jen McCabe's?
MR. BRENNAN: Do you know which number Jen McCabe's is?
MS. LITTLE: It's right here --
MR. JACKSON: Oh-one-four-two.
MS. LITTLE: No, from --
JUDGE CANNONE: So it is from Jen McCabe.
MS. LITTLE: No, from Kerry.
JUDGE CANNONE: Show it to her and ask who those numbers are.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. Thank you.
end of sidebar.)
MR. BRENNAN: May I approach, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: This number, I won't read it, this number on top, who's number is that?
MS. MCCABE: That's mine.
MR. BRENNAN: And the bottom number is who it's going to?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: So this text message, is this what you wrote?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it is.
MR. BRENNAN: To Kerry?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it is.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. I won't read that last text message again; however, it is correct that test message was from you to Ms. Roberts, number 168?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it was.
MR. BRENNAN: And in response, in this text message number 169, from Ms. Roberts to you, "You were also. This is awful, Jen. I'm in shock."
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Number 170, this one is from Ms. Roberts to you. 1/29/22 at 2:05:45. "I literally am having wine. I don't know what to do to calm down"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: One seventy-one at 2:06:35 on 1/29/22 from you to Ms. Roberts. "I know. I am definitely in shock. It keeps hitting me. I just feel so sick." Is that accurate?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: I'm going to read one more. One seventy-two, and this is from Ms. Roberts to you at 2:13:41 on 1/29/22. "I don't know what to even do. I'm so sorry for both of us." Is that accurate?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Number 175. Again to Ms. Roberts, 2:14:15, 1/29/22, you text, "I talked to Peggy. I'm devastated for them"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And did you follow up seconds later at 2:14:56 on 1/29/22, I am so sick to my stomach"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: That day, did you have to speak to children about what happened?
MS. MCCABE: I did, yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Was that part of your state of mind that day?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that.
MR. BRENNAN: Number 208 or 207. Do you see the text from this number, I don't want to say it out loud, but if you could read it, 207, do you know who that is from?
MS. MCCABE: I don't.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. We'll move to the next one then. Two-zero-eight, 1/29/22, 3:42:06, "I've never felt so sick," is that accurate?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Number 210, 4:33:40, 1/29/22, are you text messaging somebody?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you know who that is?
MS. MCCABE: I don't just off of the number.
MR. BRENNAN: And this text message, was this from you to somebody?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: "My mind is racing. I have that awful feeling like I -- "
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it. It's sent by this witness, allegedly.
MS. MCCABE: "My mind is racing. I have that awful feeling in my gut like I'm about to puke. Besides seeing the awful image, trying to wrap my head around what happened to him." Is that accurate? A Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Two-thirteen, this is on 1/29/22 at 4:38:20. Do you know who is texting you?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Who?
MS. MCCABE: My friend.
MR. BRENNAN: "Once things settle, you need to talk to someone and process the trauma," and at 2:14 you respond 1/29/22, at 4:40:38, "I have been shaking since this a.m. I feel so sick. Everything's starting to be a blur and all running into each other"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And this is at 4:40:38 at 1/29/22?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And during that day, you spoke with the law enforcement?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And the other days that follow?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: I'm going to move to 1/29/22, 7:52. If you look at number 289, please.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: At 289, is this a text from your sister Nicole?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: "Any update," is that accurate?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And you were shown this text at 292?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And you texted your sister, "Kerry talked to cops and kept it simple"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: What did you mean by that?
MS. MCCABE: I mean the cops had gone to her house, but she had a long day and had been drinking some wine so she said she just made it quick.
MR. BRENNAN: And you were sharing that with your sister?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And was your sister part of many of these texts as part of your support group?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Did anybody tell you that you shouldn't rely on your family and have a conversation about what you went through?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that.
MS. MCCABE: No, no one did.
MR. BRENNAN: During that text time, the one I just read to you, was at 7:54:38. Just turn to 296 1/29/22 at 7:56:50. Did your sister text you, "Okay. Try to get some sleep. Talk tomorrow"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And did you text back at 7:57, "Yes, but don't feel pressure"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And then the next one 298 at 7:07, was your sister asking you for any updates?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And at 7:57:13, did she text you, "I love you. Don't beat yourself up. You did the best you could"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And just a few minutes later, at number 308, please, 1/29/22 at 8:01 p.m., did your sister again write to you. "Okay. Text me in the a.m. if you hear anything later"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And you continued texting with her?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: You were asked about a timeline?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Can you turn to number 761, please?
MS. MCCABE: 761?
MR. BRENNAN: 761, please.
MS. MCCABE: What page is that on?
MR. BRENNAN: 248.
MS. MCCABE: I'm missing page 248.
MR. BRENNAN: You don't have it to page 248?
MS. MCCABE: No, it stops at 212 and picks up at 253.
MR. BRENNAN: May I stand with the witness, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Could you remind us who asked you to put together a timeline?
MS. MCCABE: Peggy.
MR. BRENNAN: Peggy O'Keefe?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Two days later, January 31, 2022, and this is at 10:26:29 a.m., are you texting Ms. Roberts?
MS. MCCABE: I am.
MR. BRENNAN: "I have spent the a.m. trying to process that he is really gone and try to piece together all the events." Was that part of a process of the timeline?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: At some point on the 31st, was something happening around Fairview Road that you learned?
MS. MCCABE: I believe there was a police presence.
MR. BRENNAN: Was there any presence from the media, the press?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, yes, there was.
MR. BRENNAN: Was that causing any concern?
MS. MCCABE: I believe I talked to Peggy and she was --
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. BRENNAN: And so on January 31, 2022, we're at number 864, you were receiving information. Do you know who this number is that's calling you?
MS. MCCABE: That's my sister.
MR. BRENNAN: Which one?
MS. MCCABE: Nicole.
MR. BRENNAN: And she's texting you, "News people came by and knocked on the door again. They're all leaving now. Peggy and them left about 15 minutes ago."
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And then at 1 o'clock, 18 seconds on 13222(sic), you text back, "Did you answer the door"?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: Was this part of your state of mind on the 31st, what was going around the house?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Just a few more. In trying to recount for people who asked you that morning and over the next couple of days, some of what's reflected in those text messages, was that part of your state of mind?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Was it in any way affecting the way you were remembering and thinking about what had happened?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Your Honor, subject to redactions, so I would seek to introduce all of Ms. McCabe's text messages.
JUDGE CANNONE: So we'll deal with that later. Is there an objection?
MR. JACKSON: There is.
JUDGE CANNONE: We'll deal with that later.
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you. I have no further questions.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JACKSON:
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McCabe, a couple of follow-up questions. You indicated on redirect examination that there were no sirens that you heard that morning with the approach of the first responders; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I don't believe there was.
MR. JACKSON: But they did have their lights on?
MS. MCCABE: I saw a spotlight, yes, and I do believe they had lights on, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Flashing red and blue lights or blue lights or red lights, some combination thereof, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That was cruisers, police cruisers, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There were -- pardon me -- there were fire SUVs -- in other words, a captain of a fire department?
MS. MCCABE: Possibly.
MR. JACKSON: There were fire trucks and fire engines. Do you know the difference?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Fire engine, the big one with the ladder on it?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There was an ambulance, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And all of them had their emergency lights on?
MS. MCCABE: Most likely, yes.
MR. JACKSON: All of them had their motors running?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if they were all running. They could have been, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Certainly, you would agree that there was a cacophony of diesel engines and gasoline engines and internal combustion engines that were running right outside of 34 Fairview, although they were silenced, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't exactly say right outside of 34 Fairview. I'd say there was some right outside 30 Fairview -- 34 Fairview. The first vehicle pulled up kind of right -- just on the right end, and most of the vehicles with the lights on were to the left. So there were actually more in front of 32 Fairview, but there were vehicles. There was Ms. Roberts' vehicle, and then I believe another vehicle pulled up I think I remember from seeing the dash cam.
MR. JACKSON: And Saraf's cruiser, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Mullaney's cruiser just on the other side of Kerry Roberts' vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I don't believe lights were on -- his lights were on.
MR. JACKSON: And there was an ambulance just to the left of -- to the left and behind Saraf's vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, which would've been in front of 32 Fairview.
MR. JACKSON: Lights on that as well?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: All facing in the direction of 34 Fairview, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Facing, but out front of 32.
MR. JACKSON: So is there a reason why you are so resistant to admit that there was a cacophony of sound and noise outside of 34 Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So there was, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Outside of the front lawn, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And there was also some people yelling and screaming at a high-pitch, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Both Ms. Read, who was yelling and screaming, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And Ms. Roberts who at least at some point told her to shut the fuck up, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked about the stop at 34 Fairview on the way to Sergeant Lank's house on redirect examination by Mr. Brennan just now, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I was, yes.
MR. JACKSON: He showed you a couple of pages of your transcript from that question-and-answer, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I believe he showed me a page, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you noted that this was from -- this was a question-and-answer from a hearing last year in this courtroom?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you admitted that you stopped -- actually, let me rephrase that. You were confronted with the fact that you stopped at 34 Fairview on the way to Officer Lank's house -- Sergeant Lank's house by me on cross-examination, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, you asked me.
MR. JACKSON: You also indicated that you have never refused to speak to the police, any law enforcement officer in this case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I've spoken when asked to, yes.
MR. JACKSON: But in point of fact, when you were approached by the two law enforcement agents who were not connected to Massachusetts State Police or to Canton PD, you suspended that interview and refused to answer further questions, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I welcomed them into my house --
MR. JACKSON: And then --
MS. MCCABE: And then I stopped and then I met with them a few times after, and I answered all their questions that they asked. I helped clear up some misconceptions that they had been told, and as you know, I know they're no longer investigating. So I think I helped them out.
MR. JACKSON: And you're obviously well aware that in that first interview, you stopped the interview cold and refused to answer further questions, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I said I'm going to stop, and I'm going to seek some counsel, yes.
MR. JACKSON: The text messages, you just read a series of text messages that Mr. Brennan actually read for you and you agreed with, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Were any of the text messages that you just read in the group chat that I showed you in cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: I don't believe so. I don't believe so, but I --
MR. JACKSON: And that group chat included you, Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, Matt McCabe, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that was a private chat among the four of you; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: That's just a chat with them, yes.
MR. JACKSON: You read some text messages to and from Kerry Roberts, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You had just met Kerry Roberts; isn't that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: She's not a McCabe; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She's not an Albert, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You even read some text messages with your minor children, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Just now?
MR. JACKSON: Yeah.
MS. MCCABE: I don't believe any were with my children.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Brennan asked you about a couple of text messages or at least one text message with your children, didn't he?
MS. MCCABE: No, he didn't.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: She can answer that question. Is that what happened?
MR. JACKSON: Did I misunderstand?
MS. MCCABE: No, I honestly didn't read anything from my children. I think one I said a friend, another time I didn't know who it was, but I do know my children's phone numbers, and, no, that was not my kids.
MR. JACKSON: Obviously, the kids are not on that group chat -- that private group chat that we went over, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, yes, correct, they're not.
MR. JACKSON: Well, let's talk about those unidentified numbers. You said this is a number I don't recognize, and Mr. Brennan read to you a text to that person, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Whoever that is, that person is not a McCabe, correct?
MS. MCCABE: They're not, correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that person's not an Albert?
MS. MCCABE: They could be. Again, it could've been Chris Albert or Julie. I don't -- one of the numbers I didn't recognize because I don't -- I have everybody in my phone with their name so I don't recognize every number.
MR. JACKSON: And that person certainly was not in that group chat with you, Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, and Matt McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And then there was a friend. You said this is a friend, and I don't need you to identify the friend, but whoever this unidentified friend is, that friend is not McCabe and is not an Albert, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that friend was also not in that group chat that we went over in cross-examination; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: These are all people outside of that group among whom you engaged in the chat that we saw, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that includes Kerry Roberts. She was not included in that group chat where you talked about the case and talked about what she was and wasn't doing with law enforcement, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. It was just my sister and my brother-in-law and husband.
MR. JACKSON: May I have just a moment, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, that's all I have.
JUDGE CANNONE: Ms. McCabe, you are all set. Thank you very much.
(End of testimony at 2:57 p.m.)
MR. BRENNAN: I'd like to play a couple of clips.
JUDGE CANNONE: You're — Yeah. I'd ask you to just wait 10 seconds.
MR. BRENNAN: I'm sorry.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. You could play them now.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. May I have your seat? Yes. I'd like to play clip 12, please.
VIDEO PLAYBACK: recorded audio — karen read: There was a woman who was a mother to kids that were close to John's kids who lived very close to the Alberts. In fact, when Jen was navigating John to [unintelligible] when I was driving, she said, "It's near Ashley's house." Ashley and John hooked up prior to John and I dating. There was a woman.
JUDGE CANNONE: Well, hold on. Hold on before you play it again. We've already played that one. We don't need to play it again.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. 12A, please.
VIDEO PLAYBACK: recorded audio — karen read: two things. Either he's hurt himself and is incapacitated. He could be passed out on someone's couch, which is just weird. We're not on a campus. Everyone lives in their own home with children. Or he's sleeping with someone. And there were multiple women in the neighborhood of Fairview that John had been with. And one of them very recently before I started dating John. Clip 16, please. recorded audio — karen read: We'll backtrack later. So, who are you with? I'm with Jen McCabe and Kerry Roberts, and Kerry Roberts is — Ford Explorer — and I'm in the back leaning over the front two seats. Kerry's driving and Jen's in the passenger seat.
MR. BRENNAN: And I described this to everyone, so you've probably heard this before, but John looked like a buffalo on the prairie. It was just a lawn in a heap that wasn't a bush or a hydrant or a dog. It was a weird shaped lump at that time in those elements. And I was looking to find him on the side of the road. I was expecting I'd find him. And the fear of what I was going to see is the worst feeling I've ever experienced. The anticipation of what is awaiting me — I wouldn't say it was as extreme a feeling as the grief of realizing what happened to him. And finally, clip 17, please.