Anthony Flematti - Cross/Redirect/Recross

MR. JACKSON: Good morning. Good morning.

MR. JACKSON: I'd like to start sort of at the beginning when you first arrived. You indicated that you could in fact see the body from your perspective, correct?

MR. JACKSON: And you — I think you indicated the shape of the body?

MR. JACKSON: No, but obviously looked like a human figure?

MR. JACKSON: Okay, that drew your attention to the left side of the ambulance as you were approaching, correct?

MR. JACKSON: And you're sitting on the right side, which means you're sort of the furthest away from that figure from the perspective of the ambulance?

MR. JACKSON: And you had no problem making out that figure in the snow?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you indicated that the figure in the snow was on top of the snow, if you will, with some snow accumulating up the body of the individual?

MR. JACKSON: But he was not covered in snow?

MR. JACKSON: It wasn't — there wasn't like a mound of snow over this figure?

MR. JACKSON: Yes. I want to ask you a couple of quick questions about some of the last conversation with Mr. Lally about the injuries. You did note that Mr. O'Keefe had a laceration over his right eye, correct?

MR. JACKSON: And your definition of a contusion is bruising?

MR. JACKSON: Was it also swollen?

MR. JACKSON: Did you see an actively bleeding laceration over his right eye?

MR. JACKSON: You don't remember that. What about his left eye?

MR. JACKSON: What about — not from the nostrils, but on the skin of the nose — did you note a laceration or multiple lacerations on the nose?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. So you can't define — as you sit here, you don't remember if it was bleeding from the nostril or from a laceration?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Are you saying that there was no laceration on the skin of the nose, or you just don't recall?

MR. JACKSON: You don't recall. Okay. With regard to his abdomen, you indicated that it was distended — medical term for swollen?

MR. JACKSON: You said that that could be from trauma or it could be just bloating, correct?

MR. JACKSON: Did you notice any contusions on his abdomen?

MR. JACKSON: Any skin that was abraded?

MR. JACKSON: Or cut?

MR. JACKSON: So there's no bruising, no contusion, but there was a distension, correct?

MR. JACKSON: So there was no visible trauma to the abdomen?

MR. JACKSON: So my question was, did you see any visible trauma on his abdomen?

MR. JACKSON: Okay, but you did notice that it was bloated — that it was distended?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. I want to talk to you for a second — if I could shift gears — about the conversation that you indicated to Mr. Lally that you had with Miss Read. You were also asked about that conversation at the Grand Jury when you testified, correct?

MR. JACKSON: You testified that as the lead paramedic, you were specifically trying to get as much information from my client, Miss Read, as you possibly could concerning the victim and how the victim ended up being there, correct?

MR. JACKSON: You indicated, in no particular order, that you asked questions like, "How do you know him?" correct?

MR. JACKSON: "How did he get here?" correct?

MR. JACKSON: "What happened?" correct?

MR. JACKSON: "Is there any additional information you can give me about what happened to this person?" correct?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. So that was a conversation that you were personally engaged in with my client in order to gather as much data, if you will, about what you were dealing with, correct?

MR. JACKSON: But your focus — when you first arrived, your focus is "I need to attend to the patient," correct?

MR. JACKSON: Like, conversations notwithstanding, I need to deal with what's in front of me, which is an unconscious man in the snow, correct?

MR. JACKSON: Dressed inappropriately, correct?

MR. JACKSON: And possibly freezing to death, correct?

MR. JACKSON: But you did say that you had enough of a conversation with Miss Read that she answered you and said something to the effect of "I hit him — oh my God, I—" hit him.

MR. JACKSON: Correct. So then you followed up on that conversation?

MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, you said that you asked her additional elaborating questions?

MR. JACKSON: "Did you hit him in the face? Or did you kick him? Did you hit him with your hand?" Okay. So that's a conversation that you're having with Miss Read face to face — you're talking to her, you're looking her in the eyes, she's looking you in the eyes, you're standing still, and you're attempting as best you can to converse with this woman so that you can gather as much information as you possibly can as you attend to the victim?

MR. JACKSON: You indicated that that conversation lasted long enough — the conversation was frustrated by the fact that you weren't getting information that was helpful to you — so you turned that conversation over to Katie McLaughlin—

MR. JACKSON: Sure. Was your conversation — in some way — and when I use the word "frustrated," I mean it was just you weren't getting the information that you were seeking — correct?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Better way to put it. I'll use your word: that conversation was unproductive enough that you then moved the conversation over to Miss McLaughlin?

MR. JACKSON: Firefighter McLaughlin — and once Firefighter McLaughlin engaged Miss Read, you then began to attend to the patient again? So the patient was already being treated by the other personnel on scene.

MR. JACKSON: Okay. I started the conversation, realized it wasn't going anywhere. I had other responsibilities. Regardless of how they ended up, they still needed treatment and transport. So that began my priority, and moved her over to try and get as much information while treatment was being done.

MR. JACKSON: What part of the treatment were you responsible for?

MR. JACKSON: Sorry — that's a great answer to a very vague question. What physically were you doing with Mr. O'Keefe? In which particular moment — when you first arrived and attended to him and physically touched him? In other words, were you the airway person, were you the cardiac person, were you doing chest compressions, were you squeezing the bag?

MR. JACKSON: And chest compressions — I'm going to butcher this, because I've never trained other than my little toddler — they look a little like what I'm doing now?

MR. JACKSON: And I demonstrated — palm over the — one palm over my hand, arms extended — and you can see my shoulders moving up and down in a rhythmic fashion?

MR. JACKSON: [unintelligible] I'll wait. What were you wearing? What was I wearing?

MR. JACKSON: Didn't expect that one, did you? That was a different one. Heavy winter coat?

MR. JACKSON: Do paramedics wear — sometimes yellow, bright yellow — for safety?

MR. JACKSON: Were you wearing a bright yellow heavy winter coat?

MR. JACKSON: Got it. Got it. Do you remember what Miss McLaughlin was wearing?

MR. JACKSON: Okay.

MR. JACKSON: That conversation that you had with Miss Read at the scene — it had to have lasted — I'm not guessing it was very long, but it had to have lasted a minute at most?

MR. JACKSON: Once you finished your conversation with Miss Read, did you then start attending specifically to the chest — the high-level CPR that we've heard so much about from your colleague?

MR. JACKSON: As you're doing the CPR on the scene — that high-level CPR, high-quality CPR — was Mr. O'Keefe then moved to the scoop, which would then facilitate getting him on a gurney?

MR. JACKSON: That gurney was then moved between a couple of patrol car cruisers and into the ambulance?

MR. JACKSON: Once you were in the ambulance, the first priority is to get this person warm, is that right?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. So obviously when you got into the ambulance you shut the doors — there's a heater on in the ambulance?

MR. JACKSON: You never came back out of that ambulance after you got Mr. O'Keefe into the ambulance, did you?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you were in there with Firefighter Nuttall at the time — Nuttall and Kelly — and Firefighter McLaughlin was outside the ambulance doing whatever she was doing?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Initially, and then she came in afterwards?

MR. JACKSON: And did I hear you correctly — when Firefighter McLaughlin got in the ambulance, she took over the driving responsibilities? So there's two different compartments, they're not connected — there's a little window between the two areas. She assisted with interventions in the back, and then after we had established everything we needed to on scene to begin transport, she then got out and started driving.

MR. JACKSON: Got it. I'd like to play — but first I'd like to have marked — I think it's already been marked — Exhibit 379. It's a video, a snippet of a video — it's probably 3 minutes long, not that long.

MR. JACKSON: Yes, you can use the laser pointer as you wish. This is just to orient you. If I may, your honor — the top — demonstrating — see if I can do this — here we go — the top is a dash cam from one cruiser. So I'm going to — I need to see counsel — [unintelligible] — for a second, please. [unintelligible]

MR. JACKSON: Did you see a person run into the screen?

MR. JACKSON: For this — until we pause it, I'm going to ask you to focus your attention on the top dash cam video.

MR. JACKSON: Can you pause it?

MR. JACKSON: -- Thank you, your honor. -- Flematti — I want to draw your attention to the top video. And I will — I may pause it and ask you a couple of questions.

MR. JACKSON: Run into the frame rather, from screen left?

MR. JACKSON: Who's that?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let's go ahead and pause. I want to draw your attention to the left side of the top video. Did you see somebody wearing a bright yellow jacket? If you could rewind it, I'd look at that area. Why don't I play it forward?

MR. JACKSON: Pause. And do you recognize that person?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Based on your memory, have you seen this before? By the way?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Based on your memory, is that the approximate position that Mr. O'Keefe was in when you and/or your colleagues made contact?

MR. JACKSON: That would be — I guess — okay, going —

MR. JACKSON: — play. You see the person enter from screen left into the frame? It looks like a person?

MR. JACKSON: That person right there looks like a long-haired female?

MR. JACKSON: Does that appear to be my client from this angle?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Go ahead and play it. Pause. You see a person wearing yellow right there on the left side of the screen?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Can you take a look — keep your eyes focused on that and tell me if you see that figure doing —

MR. JACKSON: — anything? Do you recognize that figure now?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. That would indicate CPR, would that be —?

MR. JACKSON: Is the time accurate? Or 6:13?

MR. JACKSON: Was there somebody else doing CPR?

MR. JACKSON: Who is responsible for doing the chest compressions?

MR. JACKSON: Okay.

MR. JACKSON: — one doing the chest compressions?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Does that appear to be you doing the chest compressions?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let's go — play. Okay, stop it. Do you see the person basically in the middle of the screen there?

MR. JACKSON: Does that appear to be my client? Can you tell?

MR. JACKSON: Pause. See individuals entering from screen right?

MR. JACKSON: What does that appear to be in the yellow jacket?

MR. JACKSON: And who's the person trailing the gurney?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. The person in the hood — just obscured — that figure. Did you see that figure standing on the other side of the person in the hood?

MR. JACKSON: The activity that's going on just to the sort of left side of the SUV in the frame — can you describe for the jurors what that activity is? So that would be lowering the stretcher to get ready to load the patient on.

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Pause it. Now this person now appears to be facing the camera. Do you now recognize that person?

MR. JACKSON: Go —

MR. JACKSON: — ahead. Pause. Can you focus your attention on that individual in the yellow jacket?

MR. JACKSON: What does that person seem to be doing?

MR. JACKSON: Which part of the CPR?

MR. JACKSON: Sorry, I didn't mean to talk. It's okay.

MR. JACKSON: Just compressions? I want to make sure that Nancy can get down what we're both saying. So which part of the CPR?

MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Is that you?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. At this point you have no idea — you don't remember whether you were the one doing chest compressions when he was moved from the ground to the gurney?

MR. JACKSON: But you did earlier testify you were doing chest compressions?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. In the entire length of this video, you see anybody else trade off from that person doing chest compressions? From the time the person was on the ground to the gurney — was that the same person?

MR. JACKSON: Would you say that probably —

MR. JACKSON: I want to direct your attention to this person that appears to be a firefighter in the middle. Do you see that person?

MR. JACKSON: May the —

MR. JACKSON: May — yes. Take a look at the person, uh, or the yellow in the middle of the screen. Do you recognize that as a fire jacket?

MR. JACKSON: So we don't want you to guess.

MR. JACKSON: Firefighter Moffin?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Can you recognize the person in the yellow jacket to the right of who you just described as firefighter Moffin?

MR. JACKSON: Is that — what is that person doing?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry — guess, not even an estimate. Do you know?

MR. JACKSON: Next question. Okay. Awesome. At that point, did you join your colleagues in placing him on the gurney?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Based on that, did that appear to be you following the gurney in the yellow jacket over to the ambulance?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. And who is the lead firefighter — when I say lead, I mean the one to the right, leading the gurney on the front side of the gurney?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Uh, one of your colleagues though?

MR. JACKSON: What did you do once you left the frame? Where did you go?

MR. JACKSON: And as you earlier indicated — correct?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you never came back out?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Uh, I'd like to draw your attention to the lower video. Okay, and we're just going to let that play for a couple minutes and see if you recognize anything. I'll ask you to pause it in just a second. I'm going to ask you to look up to the top video. Uh, you see what appears to be a person wearing yellow to the right?

MR. JACKSON: That's — that is — no — Looking at the lower video, do you see what appears to be a vehicle in the middle of the screen?

MR. JACKSON: What is that?

MR. JACKSON: Does that appear to be the ambulance that you arrived in?

MR. JACKSON: And that's the ambulance that you took Mr. O'Keefe to?

MR. JACKSON: Doors are closed?

MR. JACKSON: Are you in the ambulance at this point?

MR. JACKSON: Well, this was — let me just ask it a different way. This was running continuously, no pauses. You've already taken Mr. O'Keefe to the ambulance, but you'd have gotten in the ambulance?

MR. JACKSON: Well, I mean, you're not standing outside — so, if you know the answer?

MR. JACKSON: Next question. You have no idea whether you're in the ambulance or not at this point?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Would you have gone any place else when you left the frame?

MR. JACKSON: Where would Mr. O'Keefe have been?

MR. JACKSON: Again, don't know for certain — could have been, or was in the ambulance at this time?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let — go, stop. Okay. Taking a look at both screens, you see the group of people including the individual with the yellow jacket on the bottom screen?

MR. JACKSON: That appear to be the same, from a different angle — same group of people including the person with the yellow jacket on the top screen?

MR. JACKSON: Who — — the person that was directed to get the medical history from my client?

MR. JACKSON: You believe that's Miss McLaughlin?

MR. JACKSON: You don't think that's her?

MR. JACKSON: Well, let me ask you a couple of other questions. At the bottom screen, you see a police officer?

MR. JACKSON: You see a woman with long hair standing next to the police officer? That appear to be my client?

MR. JACKSON: There's an individual with a fire jacket on, right?

MR. JACKSON: And she — Miss McLaughlin — was directed to get medical history and interview my client, correct?

MR. JACKSON: That appear to be what she's doing right there?

MR. JACKSON: At this point, where do you believe you were?

MR. JACKSON: Think you might have been in the ambulance?

MR. JACKSON: You testified earlier — and this has been a continuously running video on the top — testified earlier that when you left the screen with that gurney, got in the ambulance, correct?

MR. JACKSON: So, firefighter Flematti, it's not a trick question — where did you go when you left the screen?

MR. JACKSON: Okay. When did — what equipment did you need to gather?

MR. JACKSON: Basically, you were doing chest compressions?

MR. JACKSON: You didn't say that?

MR. JACKSON: So you just put John O'Keefe in the back of the ambulance and went to look for some equipment?

MR. JACKSON: So when you left the screen and John O'Keefe is on the gurney, you're engaged in a vital life-saving endeavor, correct?

MR. JACKSON: That had to have been your focus, correct?

MR. JACKSON: And you wanted to get him out of the cold, the weather — because it was inclement, it was freezing out, correct?

MR. JACKSON: So you wanted to put him in the ambulance, right? And you wanted to continue CPR, because in your words — testified on direct examination — you believe that there might be some viability left?

MR. JACKSON: So CPR and life-saving measures were absolutely vital at that point?

MR. JACKSON: You didn't go find equipment — you got in the ambulance, didn't you?

MR. JACKSON: So at this point you're in the ambulance, correct?

MR. JACKSON: You indicated you never got back out of the ambulance after you got in, correct?

MR. JACKSON: Did you see any place in that video where you had any sort of detailed conversation with my client?

MR. JACKSON: Did you see any place in that video where you engaged my client and said, "How'd you get here, what happened?" and she said, "I hit him," and you said, "How'd you hit him?" — all the stuff that you testified earlier to?

MR. JACKSON: You indicated in a police report, during an interview that you had with Sergeant Bukhenik February 8th, that my client said, "I hit him," correct? You remember having that conversation with Sergeant —?

MR. JACKSON: Is it true that during that conversation, you indicated to Sergeant Bukhenik that — quote — "Katie spoke with Karen Read, collecting medical history for the victim, and was also told by Karen the last time she saw the victim was 1:00 a.m. that morning. That is when Anthony" — who's Anthony?

MR. JACKSON: "That is when Anthony heard Karen say, 'I hit him, I hit him.'" Is that what you told Sergeant Bukhenik?

MR. JACKSON: Does it appear that this is the time firefighter McLaughlin is getting a medical history from my client, or attempting to?

MR. JACKSON: We do know, however, that during this time you're in an ambulance, probably 30 or 40 feet away, with the doors closed?

MR. JACKSON: You certainly don't see yourself in that frame, do you?

MR. JACKSON: If we're done with the videos, can we take it down please?

MR. JACKSON: I think we are finished. Thank you. You were the lead firefighter on that team that night, correct?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry — lead paramedic, thank you. Uh, you understood, obviously, the gravity of hearing a statement like "I hit him" — some sort of explanation about what may have happened to the victim, correct?

MR. JACKSON: That statement could potentially have a direct relationship to, or a direct relational — um — impact on how life-saving measures are done by the medical personnel that you turn the victim over to, right?

MR. JACKSON: You testified at the Grand Jury that you wanted, once you got to the hospital, you wanted to be as quote unquote helpful as possible when you handed over the patient, correct?

MR. JACKSON: You said you actually stayed at Good Samaritan for an additional 10 to 20 minutes, which is your habit in cases like this, because you wanted to be quote unquote an asset to the medical intervention team, correct?

MR. JACKSON: That team includes the doctors and nurses that were trying to provide life-saving services, correct? But you never relayed to a single doctor or a single nurse a single word about a woman who said "I hit him," did you?

MR. JACKSON: You do?

MR. JACKSON: Have you ever testified about that ever?

MR. JACKSON: Oh. Nobody ever asked you. So you didn't tell anybody in a court setting?

MR. JACKSON: Testified in front of a grand jury, didn't you?

MR. JACKSON: Asked you a bunch of questions?

MR. JACKSON: During the course of that conversation, that was under oath — did you ever disclose that you told the doctors and the nurses that you heard a woman say "I hit him"?

MR. JACKSON: You directly told the doctors and nurses that there was a question about whether or not he was hit by a vehicle?

MR. JACKSON: Have you ever said that in any context, either to the police or in a grand jury, before today?

MR. JACKSON: You were asked a bunch of questions yesterday, the day before yesterday, and this morning by Mr. Lally?

MR. JACKSON: Did you say it on your direct examination?

MR. JACKSON: Ah. So since Mr. Lally didn't ask you, you just left it out — that you told the doctors, the medical professionals, that in fact you described that this patient was likely hit by a car?

MR. JACKSON: You wrote a report as well, correct?

MR. JACKSON: We talked a little bit about that report. There's an area in the report for a narrative?

MR. JACKSON: About your observations, your experiences with this patient, correct?

MR. JACKSON: Your job as a lead paramedic is to be as detailed as possible, correct?

MR. JACKSON: You want to provide and impart the most detail you possibly can about an incident to assist in medical intervention, correct?

MR. JACKSON: Take a look at page three of five of your report.

MR. JACKSON: You see that narrative area?

MR. JACKSON: Can you point to that portion of your report where you indicate that my client said the words "I hit him"?

MR. JACKSON: Can you point to your report — the portion of your report where you indicate that you told the doctors and nurses that she said "I hit him"?

MR. JACKSON: Can you point to that portion of your report where you indicate that your concern for the patient was that he had been hit by a car?

MR. JACKSON: You indicated on direct examination that you were quote unquote looking for anything that we could pass on to the emergency room. Think it might have been of assistance to the emergency room personnel to indicate that you believed this person had been hit by a car?

MR. JACKSON: Do you believe that that would have been an important piece of information to pass on to the emergency room?

MR. JACKSON: And it's nowhere in your reports, correct?

MR. JACKSON: You didn't tell that to the police when you were interviewed eight days later?

MR. JACKSON: My question is: did you tell the police eight days later, or nine days later, when you were interviewed? And you didn't tell the grand jury that, correct?

MR. JACKSON: And you didn't mention that on direct examination in front of these jurors, did you?

MR. JACKSON: I have one moment, Your Honor. ... Yes. That's all I have. Thank you.

MR. JACKSON: May I, Your Honor?

MR. JACKSON: You indicated that it's not recommended that someone do chest compressions for 15 or 20 minutes, right?

MR. JACKSON: You saw the video on screen — that video was about three minutes?

MR. JACKSON: Did it appear that the same person that was doing chest compressions at the beginning of the video continued doing chest compressions all the way through?

MR. JACKSON: Did it appear to you, in watching that video, that the person that started on the chest compressions on the left side of the screen continued all the way through, up to the scoop, up to the gurney, and off screen, doing chest compressions?

MR. JACKSON: You indicated that when you heard this phrase "I hit him," your response was "Did you hit him with your hand?"

MR. JACKSON: Yes. "Did you kick him?"

MR. JACKSON: "Did you punch him?"

MR. JACKSON: That's what you previously testified to, correct?

MR. JACKSON: Nowhere in that conversation did you ever suggest "you hit him with your car"?

MR. JACKSON: So now you don't recall about that either? [unintelligible — objection/ruling exchange] And for the first time in any forum, you're telling this jury that you then ...thought based on that conversation it was attendant to the video that we just watched — you believed that Mr. O'Keefe had been hit by a car and that she said she did it?

MR. JACKSON: And of course if you had said that to the staff of the hospital, the staff of the hospital would certainly put it in some of the medical reports, correct?

MR. JACKSON: And you're aware that none of those have that statement?