Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveJennifer McCabe — Cross (Part 1)
1,425 linesCROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. JACKSON:
MR. JACKSON: Good morning, Mrs. McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: Good morning.
MR. JACKSON: When was the last time you spoke with Kerry Roberts before your testimony today?
MS. MCCABE: She called me last night.
MR. JACKSON: What did you all discuss?
MS. MCCABE: She asked if my daughters were going to be staying home from school today because her daughter would possibly join them.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss anything having to do with your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Not the testimony, no.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss anything in that conversation with her prior testimony?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Are you aware that she testified last week?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss anything after that, after she testified, with her about her testimony?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you -- we know that through her testimony that you had a conversation with her the morning that testified, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss with her what you anticipate to be her testimony before in that conversation before she testified?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Had you and Ms. Roberts ever discussed anything about either one of your testimonies, either in the last proceeding or anticipation of this proceeding?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: So for the entirety of the last year, even though you both went through a proceeding last trial where you both testified under oath, and it was highly, highly publicized, neither one of you, your good friend Kerry Roberts and you, have ever discussed either of your testimonies between that time and this time?
MS. MCCABE: No. We discussed the case, and we've discussed what happened that moment, the moments of the morning, but we have not discussed testimony.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So let's break that down for a second. I'm talking about because the timing matters. I'm just asking at this point, if you'll bear with me, just a year from last year at a different proceeding to this year, you have discussed this case?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: With Ms. Roberts?
MS. MCCABE: Many times, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you discussed the specifics of her memory, which would be reflected in her testimony, correct?
MS. MCCABE: We talked about what happened that morning.
MR. JACKSON: So you were talking about what she remembers happening that morning, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, what happened that morning.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Not to put too fine a point on it, Ms. McCabe, but if you asked me what I had for dinner last night, it's my memory of I I had for dinner last night. Would you agree with that?
MR. BRENNAN: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you talk about her perception of what happened that morning during the last year?
MS. MCCABE: We've talked about what has happened, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So I'm trying to break it down between you and Ms. Roberts. You discussed her perceptions and her memory of what happened, as well as and separate and apart from, your memory and your perceptions, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So there have been circumstances in which you and Ms. Roberts have compared, by definition, what she remembers versus what you remember, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't say prepare.
MR. JACKSON: Now, let's move to -- well, what would you say in terms of what you've discussed and why?
MS. MCCABE: I would say that we both talked about what we've discussed, but it wasn't like a comparison. We weren't comparing anything. Q You've talked about what you discussed. What does that mean? You talked about your testimony? A No, we've discussed what happened that morning.
MR. JACKSON: Right.
MS. MCCABE: In those moments, so, you know, oh, when I got a phone call and that's my story, you know, that's my -- I got a phone call in the morning, and then Kerry would say, "Yeah, I got a phone call as well."
MR. JACKSON: As you said, that's your story, correct?
MS. MCCABE: It's not a story.
MR. JACKSON: Those were your words.
MS. MCCABE: It's the truth. It's the truth.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So for instance, when you got a phone call at 4:53 in the morning, Kerry Roberts wasn't there, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: But you discussed that with her?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you told her what perception of that -- your memory of that phone call was, even though she was not percipient to and did not witness the phone call, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I told her about the phone call, correct.
MR. JACKSON: As well as many other details that she was not privy to personally, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Conversations that you had, for instance, conversations that you claim you've had with Ms. Read, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you've told her what your perception is of those conversations or you memory was or is of those conversations with Ms. Read, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Which conversations with Ms. Read?
MR. JACKSON: Any conversation. Just anything that she wasn't privy to, you've discussed that with her?
MS. MCCABE: Some things, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And conversely, Ms. McCabe, or obviously, she's also discussed certain perceptions and memories that she has about this case, the facts of this case as she recalls them that you were not necessarily privy to, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Things that may have taken place outside your presence, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you've talked about -- I'm sorry -- she's talked to you about things -- now I'm getting myself confused. You all have talked about things that were outside of her perception, and outside of your perception, and you've shared those with each other.
MS. MCCABE: We shared our experiences. We've become very close. We both lived through a traumatic experience.
MR. JACKSON: How many times would you say you and Ms. Roberts have discussed your individual perceptions of what you remember happening on the 28th or the 29th of January, 2022; how many times?
MS. MCCABE: It would be hard to put a number on that. We talk about -- it's hard. We're bonded. We talk about the trauma that we live every day. Karen called us to help, and we both answered the phone.
MR. JACKSON: And that bonding is the glue that holds you together is this case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So that probably, by definition, is the foundation of many, many, many of your conversations, wouldn't you agree?
MS. MCCABE: We've grown into friends where we talk about many other things --
MR. JACKSON: Sure.
MS. MCCABE: -- besides the case.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. The movie you saw last weekend and what the kids are doing next week, right?
MS. MCCABE: And -- yes, absolutely. We talk many different things just like girlfriends do.
MR. JACKSON: I'm just concerned with and asking you about the subject matter of this case, and the details and the facts of this case. You two have probably talked hundreds of times, that's fair to say, about your individual perceptions, your respective perceptions, of this case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: This happened three years ago. We've talked about it time and time again. This case has traumatized us.
MR. JACKSON: And talking about -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
COURT REPORTER: Can you repeat your answer?
MS. MCCABE: Traumatized.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. It would be impossible for you two to have had so many conversations about your respective perspections of the details of that day without that influencing the other person, correct? Meaning, you've somehow been influenced by Ms. Roberts's perceptions and her memories, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't think I would say influenced.
MR. JACKSON: Would you say that she's been influenced by your perceptions and your memories?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Would you say that, Ms. McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: No, I wouldn't.
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question.
MR. JACKSON: How many times have you met with anybody from the DA's office, and I'm just going to limit the time frame right now, in anticipation of your appearance in this trial, yesterday and today?
MS. MCCABE: I'd say roughly four or five.
MR. JACKSON: Can you give me a time frame when those four or five meetings were?
MS. MCCABE: I don't have dates. I do remember at one point I met with Mr. Brennan. He was new to the case, so I went in, and he introduced himself.
MR. JACKSON: How long ago was that?
MS. MCCABE: I --
MR. JACKSON: Weeks or months?
MS. MCCABE: I can't give you a time frame. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Do you think it was last summer?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Do you think it was --
MS. MCCABE: No, it was more recent. Sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Was it in the fall of last year?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: It was in 2025 sometime?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Do you think it might've February or January?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I can't give you an exact. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: All right. I'm going to talk about the time frames of those conversations, and I'll ask you a little bit more about those conversations. So that was the first meeting you had was with Mr. Brennan in anticipation of your testimony. What were the subsequent four meetings or so that you had - with whom and approximately what time?
MS. MCCABE: Okay. So another meeting with Mr. Brennan. Are you looking for was there?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Who else was there?
MS. MCCABE: I mean, can I give you a general answer? I didn't write down, like, every meeting who was there.
MR. JACKSON: Of course. Was Mr. Lally there?
MS. MCCABE: During one or two of the meetings he was, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Was Ms. McLaughlin there?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Was anybody there else from the DA's office there?
MS. MCCABE: Officer or Trooper Tully was there at one, Trooper Bukhenik was there at one, the witness advocates were there. And again, give or take the particular meeting.
MR. JACKSON: Those are two meetings that you talked about with Mr. Brennan and others. What about the third meeting?
MS. MCCABE: No, I'm sorry. I was lumping a few of them together. I apologize.
MR. JACKSON: Sure, understood. How many meetings would you have, let's just start there, how many meetings have you had with Mr. Brennan and either staff or colleagues?
MS. MCCABE: So after the first initial meeting, again, I didn't write them down off the top of my head. I can think of two or three more after that.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. MCCABE: The first initial one.
MR. JACKSON: So that's either four or meetings with Mr. Brennan and some combination of his colleagues, Mr. Lally, Ms. McLaughlin, perhaps, Mr. Nelson perhaps, the other employee of the DA's office, and trooper -- Troopers Bukhenik and Trooper Tully?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Were you asked questions about your -- at any of these meetings. I'm just going to lump them all together, at any of these five meetings. By the way when is the most recent?
MS. MCCABE: Last night I had a Zoom call in regard I think the Court asked them --
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to stop you right there.
MR. JACKSON: I'm going to ask you a different question. If you don't mind, I'm going to lead you through this question.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: You had a conversation last night. I'm not interested in that particular conversation. That was for a very specific purpose. I'm asking you about everything leading up to, but not including last night's conversation, okay?
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: So let's leave that one out. You've had -- I think you mentioned either four or five other meetings with Mr. Brennan and some combination of his colleagues and the law enforcement?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, in my five, I included that one from last night.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Fair enough. Were you asked questions and those -- we're just going to call them four, four meetings. Were you asked questions during those four meetings about your testimony at the first proceeding last year?
MS. MCCABE: I reviewed my -- I did review some of my testimony, yes.
MR. JACKSON: In what format, paper transcript?
MS. MCCABE: No, no, we just watched a little bit of it.
MR. JACKSON: Did you watch your direct examination?
MS. MCCABE: A little bit, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you watch your cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: A little, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Who cross-examined you?
MS. MCCABE: You did.
MR. JACKSON: That was me?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And did you watch the redirect or even part of it?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you watch any part of the -- any subsequent version of recross or additional questions that you were asked?
MS. MCCABE: I don't believe so, no.
MR. JACKSON: Was there a specific area that Mr. Brennan asked you to look at and review in terms of your direct or your cross- examination?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you watch the entirety of the direct examination and the entirety of the cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe so, no.
MR. JACKSON: Were you questioned by Mr. Brennan following your review of that direct and cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: So he didn't ask you any questions about any of your answers?
MS. MCCABE: I don't -- he showed me a dash cam, and would ask me to point out who's this, who's that, the Waterfall video. Who -- is this you? Is this somebody? Those are the types of questions that he asked me.
MR. JACKSON: What about any discussion about your demeanor and how you performed in the last proceeding?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: I'll ask it a different way. What about your demeanor -- I'm using a probably poor worded form how you came across, your demeanor in the last proceeding?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss changing your demeanor in any way, shape, form, or fashion from the last trial -- I'm sorry -- the last proceeding to this trial -- my mistake -- from the last proceeding to this trial, was your demeanor ever discussed?
MS. MCCABE: No, I was just told to slow down, answer the question, and, you know, answer it to the best of my memory.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any discussion about talking about your background, for instance, your family and your children being a sports mom as you talked about here on direct examination?
MS. MCCABE: No, I believe that in the previous one as well.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any discussion about crafting your testimony in any way to suggest a softer approach?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any discussion about how to develop your testimony from beginning to end?
MR. BRENNAN: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did Mr. Brennan ask you about or -- let me ask it a different way. Did Mr. Brennan take you through a series of questions, for instance, as a -- almost a test run for questions that you might be asked either on direct examination or cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you practice your testimony with any member of the DA's office?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Were there any sessions where you sat and you were subjected to a cross-examination, like, a fake cross- examination or a fake direct examination?
MS. MCCABE: No, there was not.
MR. JACKSON: Anything like that?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: What were the things that standout in your mind? You said you had at least four meetings. How long was each meeting, by the way, ish?
MS. MCCABE: The first meeting I think was very quick. It was just the introduction --
MR. JACKSON: Thirty minutes, less than thirty minutes?
MS. MCCABE: Approximately. I don't want to give a time because I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. MCCABE: But it was fairly quick, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What about the second meeting?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I don't know specific meetings, but I can tell you that there was a longer one where I did watch the dash cam video, look at different pictures, things like that.
MR. JACKSON: What kind of pictures did you look at, other than the dash cam video?
MS. MCCABE: Pictures of John's house.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. The same photos that we saw today?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: How long in total would you say all those meetings were just taking them altogether?
MS. MCCABE: I really can't give you a -- I really can't give you an estimate. I think the first one was very quick. The second one of them was it a little bit longer. Maybe a couple of hours.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And then the third one, was that also a couple of hours or was that one fairly quick?
MS. MCCABE: That was fairly quick, yes.
MR. JACKSON: So fair to say between two, three, four hours total meeting times?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I'd have to probably go back and look at the date and the time. I really can't give you a specific amount of time. I apologize.
MR. JACKSON: Did Trooper Tully or Trooper Bukhenik ask you any questions during the course of any these meetings?
MS. MCCABE: Regarding the case, no, but we did briefly talk about how my kids were, how their kids were.
MR. JACKSON: But they didn't ask you any questions about your testimony, about the case, about your memories, about specific facts?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe so, no.
MR. JACKSON: During any of these meetings, was anybody taking notes - Ms. McLaughlin, Mr. Lally, Mr. Brennan, any of the troopers?
MS. MCCABE: No, I don't believe so.
MR. JACKSON: So there was several hours worth of meetings with you and nobody -- nobody scribed any notes that you saw?
MS. MCCABE: None that I saw, no.
MR. JACKSON: And these meetings were not recorded?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe so, no.
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McCabe, I'm going to ask you a series of questions about your family because I just want to be sure it's crystal clear who's who. You are married to Matt McCabe, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your sister is Nicole Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Nicole is married to Brian Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: It was Brian Albert's home that you were at 34 Fairview that you arrived at where John's body was found, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The same home where that late night gathering was on January 28, going into the morning of the 29th, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Would you consider yourself to be close with your sister Nicole and Brian?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, very close.
MR. JACKSON: Your families are close. It's not just you and Nicole, your whole families are close, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, we have a very close family.
MR. JACKSON: How long have you known Brian Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Since I was in kindergarten.
MR. JACKSON: You consider him, even though he is not blood related to you, you consider him family?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In addition to Brian and Nicole Albert, you're also very close with Chris and Julie Albert, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And just to be clear, I'm going to do this slowly. Brian Albert's younger brother is Chris Albert, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Chris Albert is married to Julie Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You consider Chris and Julie family even though there may not be a blood relation as well, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Chris Albert is a Canton select board member; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Now he is, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that's in Canton. I said select board member, did I mention Canton select board member?
MS. MCCABE: It is in Canton, yes.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Obviously it's in Canton. The Canton Police Department reports to the select board, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not aware.
MR. JACKSON: You're not aware of that echelon?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You're aware that Brian Albert, your friend of I'm not going to say how many years, but since kindergarten is or was a Boston police officer?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: He had been a lifetime law enforcement officer for some 30 years before he retired recently, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: He's a trained first responder, obviously?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Brian Albert and Chris Albert have another brother named Kevin Albert, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Kevin Albert is a detective with a police department, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I believe that's his title.
MR. JACKSON: Which police department is Keven Albert associated with?
MS. MCCABE: Canton.
MR. JACKSON: And you've grown up in Canton your whole life you indicated?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your entire family has grown up in Canton, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you, Ms. McCabe, have three sisters. Nicole, we've talked about. You also have a sister named Shelley; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Michelle, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Michelle?
MS. MCCABE: Mm-hmm.
MR. JACKSON: And Denise, who you mentioned on your direct examination?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Nicole is also known by a nickname; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What is Nicole's nickname within the family?
MS. MCCABE: Coco.
MR. JACKSON: Does Shelley also have a -- well, I guess Shelley is a shorter name for Michelle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What about Denise?
MS. MCCABE: She's Dee-Dee.
MR. JACKSON: Dee-Dee?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, like D-E-E, D-E-E.
MR. JACKSON: Your father lives close by in a neighboring town, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Don't tell me the town but it's relatively close to Canton?
MS. MCCABE: Twenty minutes, yes.
MR. JACKSON: His name is Tom Weeks?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There are -- I'm not going to go through all of them right now because the family tree is getting large, but there are children, cousins, second cousins, nephews, aunts, uncles, there's a combination of familial relations within that set of folks that I just talked about - Chris, Brian, Nicole, you, Matt, the folks that we just talked about?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That family, that large family, celebrates holidays together, I'm guessing?
MS. MCCABE: We don't typically, you know, celebrate with Kevin and Chris, but my family does, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Along with Brian Albert and Nicole?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Birthdays are celebrated within that family?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Go on vacations together I'm guessing?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Gatherings like the one on the 28th?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Special events?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Spend weekends together?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You mentioned a lot of sporting events. There's a lot of sporting events that you all go to together?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So it is very, very easy to see that it's an extremely close knit family?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And naturally, you're very protective of your family as anybody would be?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I love my family.
MR. JACKSON: You had also said that you knew, and your words, liked Karen Read, my client on the 28th of January, 2022, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: But she very much is not family, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She certainly was not as important to you as your actual family the Alberts, the McCabes, the folks associated with them; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: On January 28, 2022, members of the Albert family and the McCabe family all went to a bar together, had drinks together that night, Waterfall we heard a little bit about that, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Ultimately, you went back to your sister's house for the after party that we've heard so much about, that was at Brian Albert's house; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You have been interviewed I think you indicated multiple times. You didn't even give a number of how many times you've been interviewed by police in this case; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your family is connected to people at Boston Police Department. We just talked about that, Brian Albert; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Well, Brian was a Boston police officer.
MR. JACKSON: Right. So when I say connected, there's some familial or family or friendly connection to that police agency, Boston Police Department, it would be Brian Albert; is that correct?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: The objection is sustained.
MR. JACKSON: There's also a connection to the Massachusetts State Police through your family; is that right?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So define connection.
MR. JACKSON: Julie and Chris Albert are very, very close to you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm close with Julie and Chris, yes.
MR. JACKSON: You're aware that Michael Proctor's sister Courtney is basically best friends with Julie?
MS. MCCABE: No, I'm not aware of that. She's best friends with Julie's sister Jillian.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So Courtney's best friends with Jillian whose sisters to Julie --
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: -- who's married to Chris, who's an Albert, who's the little brother of Brian Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Canton Police Department, there's also some connections there as well, Kevin Albert being the most obvious of them?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to allow that. Do you have a connection with the Canton Police Department?
MS. MCCABE: Not with the department, but with Kevin Albert.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Who's a member of the department?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, but my relationship is with him.
MR. JACKSON: Understood. You indicated that you've been interviewed by law enforcement agents associated with Massachusetts State -- I'm sorry -- Canton Police Department, that would be Officer Lank?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: Can I stop you for a second and see counsel at sidebar, please?
(Sidebar commences:
JUDGE CANNONE: So I'm sorry to call you up here, but I wanted to address this. How do you intend to mention that the FBI agents because we're not mentioning any federal investigation.
MR. JACKSON: I'm going to say, agents from another agency, not Massachusetts State Police, not Canton Police Department, and not Boston Police Department. I'm doing it in the negative.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yeah, and you did that before. Agent is the problem. Okay. Agent suggests FBI.
MR. JACKSON: That's what they are.
JUDGE CANNONE: You can say other law enforcement agency, not Canton, not state police, not Canton police. What ever you said, not Boston police.
MR. JACKSON: The only issue I have with that, and I'm trying to stay as sanitized as I possibly can because I understand the Court's order and I intend to follow it. The only issue with that is there are agency protocols with the FBI that are not attended to Massachusetts State Police, Canton police, or any other state or local agency.
JUDGE CANNONE: You can bring that up, that there were protocols from another agency. Just you cannot say FBI. You cannot --
MR. JACKSON: I will not.
JUDGE CANNONE: You cannot talk about federal grand jury. But you did with Ms. Roberts, you said agents.
MR. JACKSON: Right.
JUDGE CANNONE: So you can't mention agents.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So use a different word than agent.
JUDGE CANNONE: Law enforcement from another agency.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: She knows, right? Your witnesses all know that we're not to discuss this? And your witnesses they're not to discuss this?
MR. JACKSON: They do. As a matter of fact, I was going to say - and this is a great reminder - I was going to ask that whether or not she had been admonished that she is not to disclose that it's the FBI. I, obviously, I have no contact with her at all.
MR. BRENNAN: I haven't given that specific instruction. When we have a break, I know there's a sequestration order, I wouldn't mind if the defense goes with me, but I can give her that clear admonishment.
MR. JACKSON: I'm about to go into that area.
JUDGE CANNONE: That's why I stopped.
MR. JACKSON: I figured you flagged it for that reason. Do you want to take a break now?
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. We can take our morning recess. Just so it's clear, and the same thing with federal grand jury minutes. You put it in last time as SGJ. So stay away anything that makes them different other than it's not the same as Mass. State Police. Anything that gives a suggestion -- let me finish, please. Excuse me. One minute.
MR. JACKSON: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: So just anything that stays away from it. Now you can talk to your client all you want. I just wanted to share my thoughts.
MR. JACKSON: I don't mean to be disrespectful. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to turn my back.
JUDGE CANNONE: So we'll take a break now for 20 minutes.
MR. JACKSON: Sure.
end of sidebar.)
JUDGE CANNONE: Jurors, it seems like it's a good time to take the morning recess, so we'll see you in about 20 minutes.
(Court in recess at 10:42 a.m.)
(Court in session at 11:06 a.m.)
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll see counsel at sidebar.
(Sidebar commences:
(SEALED SIDEBAR.)
end of sidebar.)
(Jury in at 11:33 a.m.)
JUDGE CANNONE: Jurors, thank you for your patience. Sometimes there are matters that we need to address and that's what happened here. So we appreciate your patience. Mr. Jackson, could we please have Ms. McCabe back in here.
(Witness present.)
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Mr. Jackson, go right ahead.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. JACKSON: When last we left off, we were talking a little bit about some of the familial connections that your family has with certain law enforcement families. We talked about Boston Police Department, obviously Brian Albert. We talked a little bit about the Massachusetts State Police and knowing friends of friends with regard to Chris and Julie, correct?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Knowing friends of friends of Chris and Julie?
MR. JACKSON: Friends of friends of Chris and Julie.
JUDGE CANNONE: Is that your relationship?
MS. MCCABE: With who?
MR. JACKSON: I'd ask you that -- I'll ask you a different question.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Little bit vague. Courtney Proctor is friends with Julie's sister?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And obviously knows -- Courtney obviously knows Julie and Chris?
MR. BRENNAN: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: And there's also a connection to Canton Police Department through Kevin Albert; is that right?
MR. BRENNAN: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Can you answer that? Is there a connection? Do you have a connection with the Canton Police Department through Kevin Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Not with the police department, but Kevin Albert is Brian Albert's brother.
MR. JACKSON: Right and Kevin works for whom?
MS. MCCABE: The Canton police.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. So you've been interviewed many times by different law enforcement agencies be they Massachusetts State police, Canton police, or otherwise, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Those interviews have not just been over a period of weeks, it's been over a period of weeks and months and even years since this occurred, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were contacted by another law enforcement agency that was not Massachusetts State police and not Canton police Department at one point in April of 2023; do you remember that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I want to talk for a second about that series of interview or that interview. You were contacted at your residence by these members of this law enforcement agency, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Later that same day, you did sit down with those same law enforcement officers for a formal interview?
MS. MCCABE: On that?
MR. JACKSON: On that same day that you were contacted by them, they also went into your home and actually interviewed you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it was brief.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Those law enforcement officers identified themselves as being associated with an agency that is not Massachusetts State Police; you understood that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you understood that they were not involved with the Canton Police Department either, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Completely separate agencies; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: During the course of that interview, those officers informed you very specifically, Ms. McCabe, that it is a crime to lie to them even during an interview, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Do those law enforcement officers informed you that they were investigating certain circumstances attendant to John O'Keefe's death, correct?
MS. MCCABE: They were very vague on what they were.
MR. JACKSON: Understood.
MS. MCCABE: I don't know what they were.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But you did understand it had something to do with your involvement at 34 Fairview on January 28th, 29, 2022 --
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: -- as a witness or otherwise?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained as to certain terminology, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Let me see if I can rephrase that, Ms. McCabe. You were aware f the subject matter of their interview, right? They weren't interviewing you about a car you bought last year, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: They were interviewing you about, basically, about what you're testifying to here, correct?
MS. MCCABE: When I first met with them, the conversation was pretty vague.
MR. JACKSON: But the subject matter, vague or specific, was about this subject matter?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Fair enough. They first contacted you telephonically, called you on the phone; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Actually, they walked up to my car.
MR. JACKSON: They walked up to your car?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. That was the very first introduction, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At that point they had not identified themselves, correct?
MS. MCCABE: They didn't, no.
MR. JACKSON: All right. And at that point, you told them that were not Jennifer McCabe. They asked who you who you were and you said I'm Nicole.
MS. MCCABE: I thought they were, like, selling something so I was, like, oh, no, I'm not the homeowner.
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. Fair enough. However, after they said -- sorry -- after you said, I'm not Jennifer McCabe, you walked in the house. They then called you on the phone?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, correct.
MR. JACKSON: They were still sitting outside your house?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know where they were, but they did call me.
MR. JACKSON: They were close by?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not aware.
MR. JACKSON: Well, the call came almost immediately after you walked back int the house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure how much time had passed.
MR. JACKSON: Give me an idea. It wasn't hours?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Five or ten minutes?
MS. MCCABE: It was soon after, I'm just not sure. I can't tell you where they were located.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. They told you that they would -- at that point, they identified themselves as being law enforcement agencts, correct?
MS. MCCABE: When they talked to me, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And they told you at that time that they were not with Canton police -- you knew, at least, they were not with Canton Police Department; they were not troopers with Massachusetts State Police, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And they told you that they would like to have an interview with you. They would like to have a sit down talk with you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You told them that you would be willing to submit to an interview, but you needed about ten minutes to get ready, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You ultimately did allow them into your home, and you did sit down for a formal interview with them, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, brief, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And during that formal interview inside the home, it was explained to you that it would be a crime for you to lie to them on any material issue, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: During the course of your interview, your husband Matt McCabe came home; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As these law enforcement agents continued to question you, law enforcement officers continued to question you at some point, you informed them that yo did not feel comfortable with any further questioning, and you suspended the interview, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Before leaving, however, those same law enforcement officers asked you if you had contacted anyone in those ten minutes when you indicated I need ten minutes to get ready. Between the time they called you and the time they showed up and came inside your house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You told them that you had contacted your husband Matt McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Which is why he came home, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you told them that you had called Kerry Roberts before they interviewed you, correct, at that moment?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not 100 percent sure, but if you have it I'll -- it sounds -- it seems like something I would do, but if you have it, you can show me.
MR. JACKSON: Absolutely.
MR. JACKSON: If I may have just a moment, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach, briefly?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: First I'm going to ask you, Ms. McCabe, if you recognize that as being a report of that interview, just generally, yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: It appears to be, yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach the witness stand and stand on the witness stand for a couple of questions?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: If I can have that, I want to direct your attention, if I may, and for Court and Counsel, page 3 of 4. Start with the second to the last full paragraph going into page 5, top full -- I'm sorry page 4, top full paragraph.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: If you could review those two photographs, read them to yourself and then look up and let me know when you're finished?
MS. MCCABE: (Witness complies.)
MR. JACKSON: May I approach, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Ms. McCabe. Did viewing those paragraphs refresh your recollection as to whether or not -- as to what you told those agents initially? I'm sorry. What you told those officers initially from that other law enforcement agency that -- about who you contacted in that ten minute interval?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I told them, correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you told them that you had contacted your husband Matt McCabe and Kerry Roberts?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: I want to stick with that for just a quick second. One of the first calls you made after being contacted by this other law enforcement -- these other law enforcement officers from the different agency, one of the first calls you made was to Kerry Robert; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: She was the first one?
MR. JACKSON: That's what I'm asking. One of the first two calls you made, your husband?
MS. MCCABE: Right.
MR. JACKSON: Come home. There's law enforcement outside my door I'm guessing is what you said, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember my exact words, no. But I did ask him to come home, correct.
MR. JACKSON: And Kerry Roberts?
MS. MCCABE: Okay. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You wanted to let Ms. Roberts know that you had been contacted by certain officers from a different agency, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I was curious. I was curious to as if they had already been to her because --
MR. JACKSON: That was my next question.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: You also wanted to find out had these law enforcement officers from this different agency contacted her, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, because typically if you enter our town --
MR. JACKSON: I just asked yes or no.
MS. MCCABE: -- she's --
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McCabe, yes or no.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, sorry. I was just trying to explain. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Is that why you contacted her to find out if, in fact, they had contacted her before you, yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you also wanted to find out what she told them, if she had been contacted by them, correct, that was your motivate in calling them?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: So you just wanted to find out had she been contacted?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: If she had said yes, you weren't going to say, and what the hell did they say, what did they ask you?
MS. MCCABE: Well, I can't -- I most -- I can't say what I would have answered -- what I would have asked her, but I know I was calling to see if they had been there, yes, that is correct.
MR. JACKSON: That was your intent.
MS. MCCABE: I called to ask her if they had been there, yes.
MR. JACKSON: So that was your intent, yes?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your motive in calling Kerry Roberts at that moment before your interview was to ensure that your story would line up with her story, Ms. McCabe, isn't that right?
MS. MCCABE: No, that is not.
MR. JACKSON: You wanted to find out if she had talked to these particular law enforcement officers, and what she had told them so that your story could somehow align or it could inform how you responded to questions that they asked you; isn't that true?
MS. MCCABE: That's not true. We both know what happened. We don't have to have a story. There is no story; there is what happened and that's it.
MR. JACKSON: So if that's true, Ms. McCabe, you have no reason to call Kerry and ask her if she had been contacted by this law enforcement agency because it's just the truth, correct?
MS. MCCABE: We're going through this whole experience together. We call each other about everything.
MR. JACKSON: There would be no reason --
MS. MCCABE: That's nothing more than that.
JUDGE CANNONE: Let her finish her answer. Go ahead, Ms. McCabe. You can finish. A There's nothing more than me calling and saying, hey, did they come to your house? That's what we did. When the media showed up, when Ms. Read's private investigator showed up, we just gave each other the heads up, hey, somebody's coming because we're just like normal moms. We're not used to this.
MR. JACKSON: And that's helpful in making sure that the stories she tells are consistent with the stories you tell to different law enforcement agencies, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, we are not telling stories.
JUDGE CANNONE: So let her finish. You said no, what? A I said, no, we're not telling stories. We don't have to compare.
MR. JACKSON: And if fact what you were telling was just the truth, there'd be no reason for you to inquire about who's contacted her, when, and for what purpose, would there? There'd be no reason, would there?
MS. MCCABE: There's no inquiring. It's like when you're a little -- when the ice cream truck was at the street next door, and I'm saying, "Did the ice truck come?" It's really that simple.
MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor. Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So you asked a question.
MR. JACKSON: Not about an ice cream truck.
JUDGE CANNONE: She answered it. An argumentative question and she responded in kind. Next question, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: You also testified in your direct examination, staying with Ms. Roberts for just a second, about a timeline that you and Ms. Roberts put together, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That's another example of the two of you talking about your own perceptions and comparing and contrasting those perceptions and putting it down on paper, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, I --
MR. JACKSON: Is that yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: It's a no. If you -- can I explain or no?
MR. JACKSON: I'm sure Mr. Brennan will have follow-up questions.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: After you gave that long -- that answer to those law enforcement officers at that separate law enforcement agency, they asked you was there anyone else that you contacted in that ten minute period before we got a chance to talk to you and your was no, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that was a lie, correct?
MS. MCCABE: It wasn't a lie, no.
MR. JACKSON: Was it true?
MS. MCCABE: I had --
MR. JACKSON: Was it the truth or a lie?
MS. MCCABE: It wasn't a lie.
MR. JACKSON: So it was the truth. You had not spoken to any other person between the time they contacted you telephonically, and you said, "I needed ten minutes," and then they came in the door. During that arc of time, you didn't talk to anybody else or contact anybody else other than Matt McCabe and Kerry Roberts. Now you're testifying that was a true statement. Yes or no, ma'am?
MS. MCCABE: I can't answer that yes or no.
MR. JACKSON: It's pretty binary. Had you -- well, let me ask you this. In point of fact, you did talk to other people, you contacted others, in addition to Matt McCabe and Kerry Roberts, correct, yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: So when you said no to the answer, did you contact anyone other than Matt and Kerry, that would be by definition, Ms. McCabe, a lie, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: It's not a lie? Is there some shade of lie that I'm not aware of?
MS. MCCABE: It's the way you're asking the question. If I could explain it would make more sense to you.
MR. JACKSON: Let me ask you -- the agents asked you. Let me go over this one more time, then I'm going to move on.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: The agents asked you in fact, did you contact anyone between the time we called you and set up the interview and the ten minutes before we walked in the door. They asked you that question, correct?
MR. BRENNAN: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: The objection is sustained. Watch the choice of language.
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: I meant the law enforcement agencies. That law enforcement agency, the members of that law enforcement agency, contacted you?
MS. MCCABE: Mm-hmm.
MR. JACKSON: Sorry. They asked you who you had contacted between the time they first telephoned you and walked in the door ten minutes later, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Data point number one. Data point number two, you told them Matt and Kerry, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You actually contacted -- they then asked you, did you contact anyone else other than Matt and Kerry, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you said no; is that correct?
MS. MCCABE: At that moment I said no, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Or any moment?
MS. MCCABE: No, at that moment because they had just come in my house --
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Only one person can talk at a time.
MR. JACKSON: You said the word no, correct ?
JUDGE CANNONE: She was finishing her answer. Finish your answer.
MS. MCCABE: I had said no because I'm going to be -- I was in a situation where there are two officers from a different agent had come in, were asking me questions, or they had said can I come in and ask you questions. At first, I thought they were selling something, then they identified themselves. I just dropped my kids off at school. Going to be completely honest, I hadn't brushed my teeth. So I kind of made some phone calls.
MR. JACKSON: Objection, Your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: So next question, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McCabe, after you said no that you hadn't contacted anybody else, those two law enforcement officers from that separate agency who had told you it was crime to lie to them, they left, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Subsequent to that, Mr. McCabe, your husband --
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: They left you their card so you could call them if need be, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, they did.
MR. JACKSON: And you in fact did call them back, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: Without telling me the content of the conversation you had, did you have a conversation with Mr. McCabe?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you call them back and say, "I'm calling you back because my husband told me?"
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: "That I lied to you, and I better clear that lie up."
JUDGE CANNONE: So sustained. Jurors, remember I told you before that only answers to questions are evidence. Be mindful of that.
MR. JACKSON: May we approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Next -- yes.
(Sidebar commences:
MR. JACKSON: Just to speed things along.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Wait. Ms. Read was coming up. Go ahead.
MR. JACKSON: Just to speed things along, if it's a spousal privilege or marital privilege, it's been waived. She told the agents that in fact my husband told me to call you because I lied to you and he's concerned.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm not going to let you into it.
MR. BRENNAN: Your Honor --
MR. JACKSON: It's one question.
MR. BRENNAN: I want to know it's not just privileged; it's disqualified, number one. Disqualified. Secondly, asking the questions on a disqualified issue that you know substantively is not admissible is just as effective as asking the question. I would ask you to caution counsel in the questioning not to introduce inadmissible evidence on purpose, including disqualified information. It's too late after I object. The jury has heard this information. There is no curative instruction I can ask Your Honor to give to correct this method. This method is improper. It puts information in front of the jury that is inadmissible.
MR. JACKSON: And I disagree foundationally with counsel's proposition. It is not disqualified information. If it was privileged, it was waived. She told the law enforcement officers, "My husband and I had a conversation. My husband told me to call you." She didn't call on her own volition. She would not have cured the lie. That's the point.
JUDGE CANNONE: So there's a history, Mr. Jackson, throughout the last trial, you did this. It's been objected to in this trial, and I'm going to sustain every objection.
MR. JACKSON: What's the this? I did what?
JUDGE CANNONE: You put inadmissible evidence before a jury. You would put things in. At one point, it was at sidebar you objected to Mr. Lally doing it, and I said there's a pattern of this, and you said, "I don't do this. I don't do this," and did it throughout the trial. There's an objection; I'm sustaining the objection. I don't want to keep reminding the jurors that only answers are evidence. So there we go. Back to table. I'm sustaining the objection.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
end of sidebar.)
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. JACKSON: You ultimately called these officers back, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you explained to them that you had been untruthful with them, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I explained that I had forgotten to mention a couple of people that I had reached out to.
MR. JACKSON: You had forgotten; is that your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You had forgotten. You remembered Matt and you remembered Kerry, but you had forgotten the others that you just contacted maybe 30 minutes before?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There were five people that you contacted, weren't there?
MS. MCCABE: I contacted Matt.
MR. JACKSON: Let's go through them. I'm just asking yes or no --
MS. MCCABE: I know four off the top of my head.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let's go through them. You contacted your husband, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You contacted Kerry Roberts, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You contacted Peggy O'Keefe, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Then, Ms. McCabe, you contacted the district attorney's office, correct?
MS. MCCABE: My witness advocate.
MR. JACKSON: The district attorney's office?
MS. MCCABE: My witness advocate who works for the district attorney's office.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Ms. McCabe. And you also left out that you contacted Brian Albert himself, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, my brother-in-law.
MR. JACKSON: For some reason, your brother-in-law, who's the 30-year Boston police detective, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And on whose lawn John O'Keefe was found dead or dying?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that.
MR. JACKSON: Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: For some reason, you didn't want these offices to know that you had communicated, specifically, with Brian Albert the homeowner just before you talked to them, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, incorrect.
MR. JACKSON: There was some reason that was important enough for you to lie about, even though you had been admonished that it's a crime to lie about that to those officers, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Incorrect. I didn't lie to them. I had forgotten who I had called.
MR. JACKSON: And all of a sudden, you had an epiphany right after they walked out the door?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Matt said, "Who have you spoken to?"
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to allow it. It's out. You're not going to go any further, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McCabe, I want to draw your attention to January 28, 2022. You had gone out drinking with your family at the Waterfall Bar and Grille, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I went with my husband and met my sister, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And met the other family, correct? Other family members?
MS. MCCABE: My niece.
MR. JACKSON: Matt McCabe, Nicole, Chris, Julie, Caitlin, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I think you mentioned Tristan was there as well?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were later joined by Nick and Karina Kolokithas; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Ultimately, Brian Higgins showed up?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Brian Albert showed up?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You previously indicated that Caitlin's boyfriend Tristan left early for whatever reason. He had errands to run or had to get to bed early for some reason; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: He left before us, yes.
MR. JACKSON: So he didn't stay throughout the shank of the evening?
MS. MCCABE: Through the what?
MR. JACKSON: The shank of the evening? Through the course of the evening --
MS. MCCABE: Oh, okay.
MR. JACKSON: -- is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And ultimately at the Waterfall, John O'Keefe and Ms. Read showed up as well?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see any tension at all between John O'Keefe and Karen that night, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No, I didn't.
MR. JACKSON: They appeared to be getting along?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Sort of a normal couple having a nice evening out together? A Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Neither John nor Karen Read appeared drunk or inebriated, out of sorts?
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't categorize them as drunk or inebriated. But again, I don't know what the definition of drunk is.
MR. JACKSON: Well, that's a fair statement. I'm not asking for their BAC, but they didn't appear to be stumbling around falling all over themselves and sloppy drunk, correct? Out- Of-Control, nothing like that?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You did see Brian Higgins and Brian Albert at a high top table sort of together through the course of that evening, correct?
MS. MCCABE: We were all kind of around, like, a long high top table.
MR. JACKSON: And John O'Keefe, and as you look at the -- I'm going to use the perspective of the video that we've seen, that camera angle that we've seen. John O'Keefe and Ms. Read were sort of further off in the corner closer to the bar rather than to the tables, correct, along with the Kolokithases and you as a matter fact?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, at different times. Everyone was kind of moving around. I spent the majority of the time that Karen and John were there speaking with Karen.
MR. JACKSON: Did -- and that was sort of over toward the bar?
MS. MCCABE: We weren't in the bar. We were at the table. So it was one side of the table from the other.
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough.
MS. MCCABE: It wasn't far away.
MR. JACKSON: I'm using the bar sort as a landmark. I didn't mean you were siding up to the bar, but just as sort of as a landmark, you were closer to the bar than, for instance, in the foreground, which would be the high top tables in the foreground, correct?
MS. MCCABE: We were just on the other -- I'm confused about this -- we were just on the other side of the table.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You did see on the opposite side of that high top table, that's where Brian Albert and Brian Higgins were standing, talking, and communicating with each other; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. I was talking to Ms. Read. I wasn't really paying attention to them.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ever see those two men get physical with one another that night?
MS. MCCABE: I did not that night, I did not see that.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever seen a full review in all the hours that you've sort of prepped for your testimony, have been shown that Waterfall video from the time you got there until the time you left?
MS. MCCABE: Not the full video, but I have seen a good portion of it, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you've certainly seen the portion where Brian Albert and Brian Higgins get up from the table and sort of get physical with one another, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I would save my more like play fighting, and Nick Kolokithas was a little bit, like, doing it with them as well.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So the physical part is, all I'm asking is did they touch each, yes?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, I guess. I mean, I guess, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: And you described it as play fighting, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't -- we could watch the video. It might explain it better than I could.
MR. JACKSON: We probably will at some point, but right now, I'm just asking about your memory. You remember them squaring off on one another, playing, but squaring off with one another, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember them squaring off. Like I said, I just watched a video. I don't remember it from that night, and I didn't really pay attention to look, like, foolish, like, guys. I don't even how to describe it.
MR. JACKSON: From your perspective and having watched the video, did it appear that they squared off on each other and sort of took a fighting stance?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't look at it that, so I could not say that.
MR. JACKSON: Did you see them walk up to each other and grapple with one other like they were almost punching each other, Ms. McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: Right.
MR. JACKSON: I get that. Were they grappling with one another, like faking punches to each other?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Almost like sparring a little bit?
MS. MCCABE: I don't honestly know.
MR. JACKSON: But you did see the video?
MS. MCCABE: I saw them together. It's blurry, and they're kind of -- I don't really know what they were doing.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But they weren't standing there holding hands, for instance, right?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, God, no.
MR. JACKSON: They weren't on their phones, right?
MS. MCCABE: They were engaging with each other playfully grabbing at each other. I don't really ...
MR. JACKSON: Playfully grabbing at each other play fighting, correct, that's my point?
MS. MCCABE: I'd have to watch the video to categorize it as play fighting.
MR. JACKSON: You don't have that in your head?
MS. MCCABE: I do -- no, it was quick clip. I wasn't focusing on Brian and Brian. I was just identifying that that was myself in the video and there was Ms. Read, and I believe Ms. Read actually did some play fighting to Matt.
MR. JACKSON: There was in fact -- to Matt?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, I feel like she went like this to Matt (demonstrating) at one point, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. MCCABE: In the video.
MR. JACKSON: So let's talk about Brian and Brian, Brian Higgins and Brian Albert. Those two men very large in stature, correct?
MS. MCCABE: They're big guys, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Big boys. Lot bigger than me, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: They took a fighting stance with each other and started grappling, playing, coming toward each other as if they were engaging in a fake physical altercation, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I did not see them. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't even see it on the video?
MS. MCCABE: I saw them on the video grabbing at each other. I didn't see stances or -- but, again, I didn't pay much attention to it.
MR. JACKSON: And that's your best memory as you sit here today?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Eventually you, your husband, Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, Nicole, Caitlin, everybody went over to 34 Fairview at the end of the night, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The bar closed at I'm guessing midnight?
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Is that right? I think. We were wrapping around then. I don't know what time it actually closes.
MR. JACKSON: When you left Waterfall, the people that were still there included Matt, your husband, and John O'Keefe; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You walked out with Karina Kolokithas and Karen Read?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you said to Ms. Read something along the lines of, you're coming with me, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I said, "Why don't you come with me?"
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Fair enough. You were prompting her to join you for the ride over to 34 Fairview; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You even went outside and sort of waited in the cold. There's a video -- have you seen the video of you outside, the surveillance video of you outside in the cold?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you're sort of waiting there moving from foot to foot like it's freezing out, which I'm sure it was, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In a big puffy coat of some kind, right?
MS. MCCABE: So the question was I moving foot to foot in a coat?
MR. JACKSON: My question is more did you see yourself waiting outside in the cold?
MS. MCCABE: I saw myself -- I believe I was in a conversation at that point when I was standing outside there with John and Karen.
MR. JACKSON: And that's when you were asking Karen to come with you?
MS. MCCABE: No, I asked Karen previously when we were at the door to come with me because I didn't how long Matt and John would be in the bar.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And that would have by definition brough Karen to 34 Fairview separate and apart from John O'Keefe if Karen had come with you, fair?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Ms. Read and -- Ms. Read ultimately declined your invitation and did go with John; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: John ended up coming to the door so they went together, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And finally you walked away, and your husband Matt went to 34 Fairview in your personal vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When you arrived at the 34 Fairview, were you the first among the group that we just talked about to arrive or had others arrived before you?
MS. MCCABE: Others had arrived before me.
MR. JACKSON: When you walked into 34 Fairview, where was everybody generally located? Give me a layout of the interior of the home, how you walked in, and where everybody was located in that area when you walked in from the Waterfall.
MS. MCCABE: So I walked in through the front door, took a right into the kitchen, and then there were people sitting around the kitchen table - Brian Albert, Jr. Julie Nagel, Sarah Levinson, Caitlin Albert. My sister was over more towards, like, the counters and the sink and Brian Albert and Brian Higgins were -- there's like a room right off the kitchen like a TV room, and they were in there just talking. I think Nicole had like put up some new pictures of maybe her son was in the Marines. They might've been looking at a picture. Vaguely, I have a faint memory of that.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that you walked in the front door, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach, briefly?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Can't you just take a look at that photograph just for a second.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recognize the photograph?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What do you recognize that photograph as being?
MS. MCCABE: It's my sister's house.
MR. JACKSON: 34 Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Brian Albert's house as well?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I'd like to mark this for identification.
JUDGE CANNONE: Identification's good.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
(Whereupon Exhibit F, Photograph, was marked for identification.)
MR. JACKSON: If I may have just a moment, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, with the Court's permission I'm going to show a different exhibit so the other issue can be resolved with the Court's permission. It's Commonwealth Exhibit 3. Permission to publish.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Wolk, could you highlight or enlarge the house as much as you can. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McCabe, do you recognize what's depicted in this photo? I know it's at a little bit of an angle.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What is that?
MS. MCCABE: That is 34 Fairview.
MR. JACKSON: Can you -- I think this laser will work.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Can you use that laser and point to the front door that you entered when you walked in the house?
MS. MCCABE: (Witness complies.)
MR. JACKSON: Okay. That's directly in the middle of the -- just to the left of the flagpole for purposes of this photograph, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Is there another entry door on the house that you may not be able to see but you know the general area?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Where is that door?
MS. MCCABE: So that would be -- see where those two windows are?
MR. JACKSON: Yes.
MS. MCCABE: The door would be kind of behind that right there. So it's right to the left of those two windows.
MR. JACKSON: And, Ms. McCabe, just staying with the doors for a second, is there another door associated with the garage?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, actually, yeah, there is. Right there.
MR. JACKSON: Right next to that side door?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't go in the side door. You went in the front door that night?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that once inside the house, you were sort of in the kitchen area; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I was in the kitchen, yes.
MR. JACKSON: You weren't paying special attention to Brian Albert or Brian Higgins, what they were doing? As a matter fact, I think they went into a different room; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: There's a room -- kind of kitchen opens up into the -- so they were in there.
MR. JACKSON: So the only two that you recognized at this point in the night, not being sort of with everybody else, were Brian Albert and Brian Higgins separated out in the family room or whatever that room is called, living room?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, like, just right there. Just right where they are, kind of right in the next room.
MR. JACKSON: When you first pulled up, did you notice any vehicles in front of Brian Albert's house?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: What vehicles did you notice -- vehicle or vehicles?
MS. MCCABE: Just one.
MR. JACKSON: What was that vehicle?
MS. MCCABE: It was a Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: Can you describe the Jeep for us, please?
MS. MCCABE: I really can't. All I can say is that when I pulled down the Jeep was on -- parked on the street in front of a mailbox and I turned into the driveway.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did the Jeep have any special features on it that you remember that you can describe?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I can recall.
MR. JACKSON: Big giant snowplow on the front?
MS. MCCABE: Again, it was dark. I just -- I didn't really pay too much detail to it beyond I just asked, whose Jeep is that.
MR. JACKSON: And did you learn whose Jeep that was?
MS. MCCABE: It did, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Who's Jeep was it?
MS. MCCABE: It was a Brian Higgins' Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: And you said it was parked in front of the mailbox; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So as you're looking at the house, the mailbox would be closest to the driveway; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Rather than, for instance, the flagpole on the other side of the lawn?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. So if the flagpole is here, there's the lawn and here's the drive -- I mean, here's the mailbox, and then the driveway is right here.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. MCCABE: Does that make sense?
MR. JACKSON: It does to me. Thank you for that. You've previously indicated that the back edge of his -- of that vehicle, Brian Higgins' Jeep was at the side basically of the driveway which is what you just described. You'd be blocking the mailbox. The rearend associated with the driveway entrance, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever discussed having seen that Jeep in that spot with anybody else in this case?
MS. MCCABE: As that including previous testimony, or -- A It is, and at any time. Before you testified at the previous hearing, had you discussed having seen that Jeep in that spot with anybody else, for instance, your husband?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any other car on that curb line, if you will, other the Jeep when you pulled in?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I remember.
MR. JACKSON: And Brian Higgins, it was his Jeep, he's in the house. That Jeep's not moving, correct? So it stayed where it was?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At some point, did you observe Ms. Read's vehicle pull up to the driveway -- I'm sorry -- pull up to the house?
MS. MCCABE: I was told there was a vehicle outside, so I went and looked, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Where was that vehicle? When you looked that first time, where was Ms. Read's SUV?
MS. MCCABE: When I want to the front door and looked out, it was straight ahead.
MR. JACKSON: So that would be parallel or in line with the Jeep, correct? A Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Directly in front of the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know the distance, but, yes, you're correct it was in front of the Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: So if the Jeep was a normal -- it's a full-size Jeep, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know what size it is.
MR. JACKSON: Certainly, an SUV it's a full-size SUV?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So that would take up much of the room of the curb area in front of 34 Fairview, between the Jeep, assuming there's a snowplow, and a full size SUV, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not really sure of the whole area. There was a Jeep, and then there was a car. I just don't know the distance between them.
MR. JACKSON: You gave a description of the vehicles that were out in front of 34 Fairview in your January 29, 2022, interview with Trooper Proctor, correct?
MS. MCCABE: He came to my house and asked me questions, correct.
MR. JACKSON: When you gave that interview to Trooper Proctor, you indicated to him that you first observed Ms. Read's vehicle parked on the street by the driveway, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I never said by the driveway, no.
MR. JACKSON: So if that's in a report, Trooper Proctor got that fact wrong, that detail wrong?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: If in fact -- well, let me ask it this way. What did you say to Trooper Proctor about where that vehicle was?
MS. MCCABE: Ms. Read's vehicle?
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I told him it was straight out front the window -- straight out front at the front door. Sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Trooper Proctor wrote a report about his interview with you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You've seen that report in other hearings; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your interview with him was on January 29, do you remember the date? I'm sorry I just said the date. Do you remember the time? My mistake.
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember the exact time. I'm assuming afternoon, like, after 12:00 or I'm not 100 percent. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: You had been contacted by Trooper Proctor while you were still at 34 Fairview Road; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Ultimately, instead of coming from the Canton Police Department to 34 Fairview Road, you went home to your house to the (f) address?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: And Trooper Proctor ended up meeting you there, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And in addition to you and Matt being there, Brian Albert showed up, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I asked him to come.
MR. JACKSON: So you asked your brother-in-law to come to the interview that you were having with Trooper Proctor formally in furtherance of his investigation surrounding the circumstances of this case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: But Brian Albert did show up to your house?
MS. MCCABE: He did. I asked him to come, yes.
MR. JACKSON: and he was inside the house when Trooper Proctor ultimately interviewed you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: He was in the house, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you had spoken to Brian Albert before Trooper Proctor had interviewed you formally, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so, yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, several times you had to have spoken to him at 34 Fairview. You've already said that.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, right, yeah, we went out there.
MR. JACKSON: And then obviously you spoke to him about the interview before Trooper Proctor got to your house to interview you on the 29th as well, correct?
MS. MCCABE: We were just talking about what happened. It wasn't, like, specifically about Trooper Proctor.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Not about Trooper Proctor. You talked to Brian Albert about the circumstances of this case before you spoke with Trooper Proctor?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I have.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember exactly what you said to Trooper Proctor about the location of the SUV in front of the house?
MS. MCCABE: I knew what I said, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What exactly did you say to him?
MS. MCCABE: I said the car was straight out front of the front door. When I was looking out the front door, it was straight ahead.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that what you actually said, Ms. McCabe, is that you first observed the vehicle on the street by the driveway facing in the direction toward Chapman?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it. Is that what you said?
MS. MCCABE: Those are not my words, no.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: You've already indicated that following the events of January 28, and 29, you have spoken extensively with your families and friends, members of your family and your friend group, about what happened that night, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that includes Brian and Nicole Albert; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That includes Matt McCabe, your husband, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That includes Chris and Julie Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: It includes other people that were there that night including Brian Higgins?
MS. MCCABE: I haven't spoken to Brian Higgins since I believe John O'Keefe's wake.
MR. JACKSON: But you did speak to him that morning at 34 Fairview; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, yes, he was there, yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter fact, he's the one that told you to call Officer Lank back, and have Officer Lank come back for the additional statement you wanted to give Officer Lank; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: He may have suggested it. I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: So in those discussions that you had with all these folks, you talked some details about that night being at the bar, the house, who was where, all of those things, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You talked about the timing of the night, who arrived, when my people arrived at 34 Fairview, when people arrived at Waterfall Bar and Grille, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, those really aren't details we discussed. Everybody kind of knows when they came and when they left. We talked more about, you know, living with everything that we've gone through.
MR. JACKSON: Well, what about on the morning of January 29, when everybody was still in that sort of friends and family gathering inside 34 Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: When I was there with my husband and sister and brother-in-law and Brian's friend and Julie Albert, I was trying to piece together what had happened. They were all being supportive. They had no idea what happened. We were just kind of sitting there in utter shock waiting to hear from Kerry about John. It was nothing more than just us being together and trying to figure out what happened. I had gotten a phone call from Karen to help her.
MR. JACKSON: And during that conversation -- during that conversation or that series of conversations, you were sharing what your observations of that evening were, what your story was, how the evening started out, how it ended for you, correct, how the morning ended for you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, not correct.
MR. JACKSON: During the time that you folks were inside the house discussing this, there was no law enforcement agent or officer inside that house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So the entire family and the friend network that we're talking about with whom you discussed all these events, everybody was entitled to and did coordinate their statements without any separation and without any law enforcement oversight, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I was with my family, my sister, my brother-in-law. It wasn't really a group of us. As I mentioned like five or six people. I was in shock. I didn't know what had happened. They were just asking me what happened, questions like that, and I absolutely told them. But there was no story, there was no us being allowed to. That was my family. They were just there with me.
MR. JACKSON: But nobody was separated by law enforcement, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't believe there was a reason to separate us.
MR. JACKSON: Well, notwithstanding what you think was a reason, you're not a professional investigator, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not.
MR. JACKSON: You're not a trained investigator?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You're certainly not a homicide detective, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: None of you witnesses were ever separated, were you that morning?
MS. MCCABE: There was no reason to separate us.
MR. JACKSON: I'm not asking if there was a reason, Ms. McCabe. I'm asking you whether or not factually anybody was separated in that house or was everybody allowed to talk amongst themselves?
MS. MCCABE: I was with my family. We didn't need to be allowed.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let me try this again. Was anybody in that house separated when the witnesses separated from each other, the family who are witnesses, were they separated from each other by law enforcement?
MS. MCCABE: At that point, I don't think anyone but myself in that were witnesses.
MR. JACKSON: I'm not asking what your determination of who the witnesses are. I'm asking you whether the folks in that house were separated by law enforcement before you were able to have discussions about the events of January 28, and 29. That's a yes or no question. Were you separated or not?
MS. MCCABE: At one point when Mike Lank was in the house, he had separated and talked to Nicole, then Brian, then Matt.
MR. JACKSON: And then he promptly left and left everybody in the house together, correct?
MS. MCCABE: He left us, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Nobody was taken down to the station; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter fact, Trooper Proctor didn't even come over to 34 Fairview, the scene of the incident, to interview you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I asked him to meet at my house because I had to go home to my children.
MR. JACKSON: And he accommodated you, didn't he?
MS. MCCABE: He did, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And he accommodated the fact that Brian Albert escorted you to the house for your interview, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Brian didn't escort me, no.
MR. JACKSON: Well, he went to your house at the same time that Trooper Proctor was there to interview you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: He came at some point, yes, by himself.
MR. JACKSON: Before Trooper Proctor did the interview?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if he there -- if he had got there before or when he arrived.
MR. JACKSON: Well, you've testified in the past that --
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: -- Brian Albert came to your house alone. I don't mean you came in the same car, but he followed you over to your house before Trooper Proctor ever got there, and he was in the house while Trooper Proctor conducted his interview of you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, Brian was in the house for the interview.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. You've already indicated that you been discussing this case with certain other witnesses not for days or weeks or months but literally for years, most specifically Kerry Roberts, correct?
MS. MCCABE: The case in general, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Just before Kerry Roberts testified at a grand jury proceeding in this case, you were with her, weren't you?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall what you're talking about.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember being at the grand jury?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember testifying at the grand jury?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, the one back in April --
MR. JACKSON: April 11, 2022?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Does that sound right?
MS. MCCABE: That sounds about right, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember being there in an anteroom with some other folks?
MS. MCCABE: What's an anteroom?
MR. JACKSON: An anteroom, a waiting room?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember that testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember Kerry Roberts being with you in that exact same anteroom?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that was right before her testimony, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so, yes.
MR. JACKSON: So in answer to my question, you two were together literally just before she testified at the grand jury, which was the first formal under oath testimony that she ever gave; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When she testified at the grand jury, was that before or after you two gotten together and created this timeline?
MS. MCCABE: We did the timeline right after John had passed.
MR. JACKSON: But you testified the answer is you testified after the timeline was created, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Brian Albert and his family had a dog on January 29, 2022, did they not?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, they did.
MR. JACKSON: What was that dog's name?
MS. MCCABE: Chloe.
MR. JACKSON: What kind of dog was Chloe?
MS. MCCABE: German Shepard.
MR. JACKSON: Was it -- do you know if it was a purebred German Shepard or a mix of Malamois and German Shepoard, or do you know?
MS. MCCABE: I have no idea.
MR. JACKSON: Big dog.
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, a good sized dog, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Seventy pounder?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know its weight.
MR. JACKSON: Not a little munchkin dog?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: It was a full size German Shepard?
MS. MCCABE: It's a full size, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: On the morning you described going into the house, January 29th, 6:40 a.m. or so, you indicated that you burst into the bedroom to wake your sister and Brian Albert; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I went into the bedroom.
MR. JACKSON: It's still dark out, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There had been relative chaos on the lawn for a number of minutes from about 6:10 until at least 6:40, when you went in, there was still emergency vehicles with lights on and engines running and chaos, relative chaos, bedlam as somebody has said, on that front lawn, correct?
MS. MCCABE: It was more on their side lawn and down the street, kind of, like all the cruisers -- a lot of them were behind there, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Right in front of 34 Fairview, correct?
MS. MCCABE: To the side -- in the side yard of 34 Fairview, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And on the lawn of 34 Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Where first responders were responding, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you said my client is screaming to the top of her lungs; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, she was.
MR. JACKSON: And Kerry Roberts was screaming back at her?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Shut up or shut the fuck up, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Yeah. Then at 6:40 a.m., under the cover of darkness, you walked in the front door of the unlocked front door of Brian Albert's house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I went into my sister's house, correct.
MR. JACKSON: It wasn't Brian Albert's house?
MS. MCCABE: And Brian Albert, yes, I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: You then climbed the stairs up to the bedrooms, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You walked into the bedroom door where Brian Albert and Nicole Albert, according to you, were sleeping; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So you would agree that you unexpectedly, in terms of their view, unexpectedly walked into their house, basically in the middle of the night, middle of the morning?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that when you went through their bedroom door, you sort of burst through, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I opened the door. I don't know if I used the word burst.
MR. JACKSON: You previously indicated that when you went through the door it was chaotic because you were so amped up from the events; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know if I used those words.
MR. JACKSON: Would you say that you were loud or quiet?
MS. MCCABE: I think, as I explained earlier, I was like where everything was going on around me, and I was kind of like in a -- just a state of shock, and I remember thinking I don't want to startle them but I have to wake them up because obviously when I wake them up, they're going to be panicked and think something terrible happened.
MR. JACKSON: Why didn't you want to startle them? Something terrible had happened.
MS. MCCABE: I didn't want give them a heart attack when I woke them up.
MR. JACKSON: But you didn't walk up and just nudge them, and say, hey, Nicole, honey, can you wake up? There's something I need to talk about. You didn't do that?
MS. MCCABE: No, I was like Brian, Brian, Nicole, wake up. Wake up.
MR. JACKSON: Exactly. But you weren't saying in that voice, either. You were saying Brian, Brian, Nicole, get up?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if it was that loud, but I definitely was trying to wake them up, yes.
MR. JACKSON: What was the dog's reaction?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall seeing the dog.
MR. JACKSON: So according to you, to the dog at least, when you get in the mind of a dog, a relative stranger walks in the front door, climbs a set of stairs, the house is completely dark, walks into a bedroom door, and starts barking -- the person starts barking get up, wake up, Brian, Nicole. And you don't remember seeing or hearing a dog at all?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: As you indicated, it's not that the dog wasn't reactive, it's that you don't even remember the dog even being there, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I have no memory of the dog, no.
MR. JACKSON: But you do know that that dog sleeps in Brian and Nicole's room, correct?
MS. MCCABE: It may. I don't know for sure.
MR. JACKSON: The reason you don't remember the dog being there is because the dog wasn't there, was it?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember the dog.
MR. JACKSON: Right. So when you walked out of the room, when you walked in the house, you didn't see the dog?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: When you walked up the stairs, no dog?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Walked down the hallway, no dog?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Walked into Brian and Nicole's bedroom door, no dog?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember seeing the dog.
MR. JACKSON: I realize that. Dog or no dog, no dog?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember seeing the dog. IT doesn't mean it wasn't there or was there. I just don't remember seeing it.
MR. JACKSON: Well, you didn't -- no dog came up to you and barked at you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see or hear a dog whining or howling, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear or see a dog's scratching at the door?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: There was no sign of a dog at all in Brian and Nicole Albert's house at 6:41 a.m. when you walked into that house, correct, or 6:40, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember seeing the dog.
MR. JACKSON: And this was a 70 pound German Shepherd, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know the weight of the dog.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever heard the -- have you ever heard a description given about that dog by Brian Albert or anybody else that that dog was not good with strangers?
MR. BRENNAN: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you know, as you said you're very, very dear friends and obviously dear friends with Brian Albert and relations with Nicole Albert, your sister, are you aware that that dog was not good with strangers?
MR. BRENNAN: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Do you know that?
MS. MCCABE: I don't. It wasn't good with other dogs is what I knew, so I could never bring my dog over there. That's all I know about the dog.
MR. JACKSON: It had some aggression, correct, at least with other dogs?
MS. MCCABE: Possibly.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to allow it. Possibly with other dogs was her answer. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. JACKSON: If you could remind the jurors, in your memory who was the last person to leave the house at 34 Fairview on the morning of -- the early morning hours of January 29?
MS. MCCABE: I believe Caitlin left after us, my niece.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. At some point, we've already talked a little bit about this, you said you looked out the front door glass? Was it a window or is the whole door glass?
MS. MCCABE: The whole door was glass I believe.
MR. JACKSON: Is it like a -- and pardon my ignorance. Is there like a wooden door that is open and there's a storm door that's all glass that was closed. Is that what we're dealing with?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. Yes. Yeah, that sounds about right.
MR. JACKSON: May I have just a moment, Your Honor?
MR. JACKSON: Can we take one more glance. I'm going to back up for a quick second.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Can we take a look at exhibit, Exhibit 3, with the Court's permission?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: And can you enhance that just a little bit, please. Thank you so much. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I forget to ask Her Honor. I apologize, Ms. McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: One more point of reference, can you please show the jurors where Brian and Nicole Albert's bedroom window is in that photograph?
MS. MCCABE: Sure. It's right there.
MR. JACKSON: Upper left window, upper most left window, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Let me get back on track. You indicated you looked out that storm door and saw Ms. Read's vehicle, her SUV, directly in front of you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was the first time you noted or clocked that SUV being there?
MS. MCCABE: The first time -- I'm sorry?
MR. JACKSON: The first time you noted the SUV, in other words that you visually saw it, it was directly in front of you, it was back by the mailbox, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Did you still see the Jeep parked back by the mailbox?
MS. MCCABE: I looked out the window. I saw the car. I didn't really pay attention to details of other cars. I just looked and saw her car.
MR. JACKSON: When you first looked out that window and saw or looked out the door and saw the SUV, what time was that?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember off the top of my head. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Does the time 2:23 a.m. sound familiar?
MS. MCCABE: 2:23?
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, 12:23. My mistake.
MS. MCCABE: Again, I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: When you looked out the door, did you see other vehicles at that time other than the Jeep, other than Ms. Read's SUV?
MS. MCCABE: I believe I saw lights -- oh, sorry. Lights like over here (demonstrating) somewhere. If the Jeeps there and the car, sorry, is there --
MR. JACKSON: Can you describe for the record what you did? The theres(ph) don't come across on the record.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, sorry.
MR. JACKSON: So to your left --
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: -- is --
MS. MCCABE: Straight out would be Ms. Read's vehicle that I looked at. I don't -- I kind of looked at that. I remember my peripheral vision seeing lights over there (indicating) to the left. Sorry.
MR. JACKSON: So the way that you're describing this and that's lights to a vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter fact, you know what vehicle that is?
MS. MCCABE: I do, yes.
MR. JACKSON: What vehicle is it? Describe it for the jurors, please.
MS. MCCABE: It's Ryan Nagel's.
MR. JACKSON: Ryan Nagel's what, car, truck?
MS. MCCABE: I believe he has a truck.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So what you're describing is you looked out the window, you saw Ms. Read's SUV directly in front of you. Right behind that in line was Brian Higgins' Jeep and behind that was Ryan Nagel's truck; is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure where his truck lines up. I just remember seeing lights. I just quickly went, saw Ms. Read's car and went back into the room. I wasn't, I apologize, paying attention for, like specific details about cars.
MR. JACKSON: At some point you did become interested in exactly what time Ryan Nagel's truck arrived, correct? This is after the fact. Well after the fact. Months after the fact.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, you took it upon yourself to ask Julie Nagel, Ryan's sister, to send you something, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: What did you ask her to send you?
MS. MCCABE: I ran into the two of them and --
MR. JACKSON: I didn't ask you who you ran into, just what did you ask her to send you?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. A text message.
MR. JACKSON: A screen shot of a text message.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, a screenshot of a text message between Julie and Ryan Nagel.
MR. JACKSON: You knew at the time that Ms. Nagel very obviously was a percipient witness in this case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. It was very early on.
MR. JACKSON: Well, I mean she was in the house, Ms. McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: She was in the house when Ms. Read's vehicle appeared, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She was in the house when you were looking at the vehicle?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She was in the house when everybody came home from the -- came to 34 Fairview from the Waterfall BAr and Grille, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She was interacting with those in the house the very time we're talking about it, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: She went outside at some point to talk to her brother outside the house right behind the SUV that you're describing as Ms. Read's SUV, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So you knew she was -- and you knew all this when you asked her for that screenshot?
MS. MCCABE: I was trying to piece together the time --
MR. JACKSON: You knew all of this when you asked for the screenshot?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You knew what her position was in this case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: She had no involvement. What happened outside is different.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Let her finish her answer. Go ahead, Ms. McCabe, finish that answer. A I didn't -- what happened outside was separate from anything that happened inside.
MR. JACKSON: I'm going to ask you again. You knew all of that information that she -- Julie Nagel was a percipient witness in this case as was everyone else inside of 34 Fairview when you asked for that screenshot, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That is another example of you coordinating information with other witnesses in this case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, that is not correct.
MR. JACKSON: You were advised -- were you ever advised by Michael Proctor not to coordinate information with other witnesses in the case? Did he ever say don't do that?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: So you don't recall or he didn't?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall if he did or not.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. If he did tell you not to coordinate with other witnesses, this would be a breach of that agreement, wouldn't it?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Indeed, once you got that screenshot, we'll talk about that in just a second, when you got the screenshot, did you ever share that with law enforcement?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if I did or not.
MR. JACKSON: You never provided that to Michael Proctor or any other investigator, did you?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if I did or not.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, Ms. McCabe, the only reason we know about that screenshot is because of the extraction on your phone, isn't that right?
MS. MCCABE: If that's how you know about it. I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: You asked for that screenshot for your own personal use, for your personal information, for your personal coordination, correct, of what happened that night?
MS. MCCABE: That's -- what are you asking? There's three questions there.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ask for that screenshot for your own personal use?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And indeed, you do know what time it was that you looked out and saw Ryan Nagel's truck because the screenshot told you that, correct?
MS. MCCABE: The screenshot told me when Ryan Nagel pulled up. It didn't tell when I saw.
MR. JACKSON: And what was the time when Ryan Nagel indicated that he pulled up?
MS. MCCABE: I'd have to look at the screenshot.
MR. JACKSON: 2:23 a.m. -- 12:23 a.m. sound right?
MS. MCCABE: If you have it and that's what it says, absolutely.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look at that transcript, that colloquy. Can you read that to yourself the highlighted portion to yourself?
MR. BRENNAN: I'd like to be heard.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Why don't counsel come to sidebar.
(Sidebar commences:
MR. BRENNAN: Counsel has suggested that there's information to support the question that there was a text message that would evidence Ryan Nagel arriving at 12:23 at Fairview, and since that was now offered to the jury under question, we should see that screenshot to see if that in fact is accurate.
MR. JACKSON: We don't have the screenshot.
JUDGE CANNONE: She asked for the screenshot. She said if you have the screenshot, then I'll believe you. I thought this was a screenshot. What am I looking at?
MR. JACKSON: I think the screenshot was deleted from Jen McCabe's phone. We know about it because of Julie Nagel's testimony as well as --
JUDGE CANNONE: Because of what?
MR. JACKSON: Julie Nagel's testimony as well as Jen McCabe's testimony at the last trial. She adopted it and agreed that's what she did and that's what the time of --
JUDGE CANNONE: Is this the trial testimony?
MR. JACKSON: It is.
MR. BRENNAN: They've implied a certain time, and they've implied there's a basis of fact separate from grand jury testimony. The implication and the assertion to this jury is that there is a screenshot that marks the time, and that's central to the timeline and the data in this case. And so if they're going to make that representation, they have to be able to support it with an offer of proof, whether they show ot or not. So now I'm asking for that offer of proof. That would be unfair to make a suggestion substantively of information that is inaccurate, and so I'd like to see the screenshot.
MR. JACKSON: It's not inaccurate. Mr. Brennan knows well that it was deleted from her phone. We don't have the screenshot. Neither does she and neither does Julie Nagel, but they all have agreed that it's accurate. That's what happened. I don't have to show a screenshot for her to say, yeah, I took a screenshot.
JUDGE CANNONE: So I'm going to mark this for identification.
(Whereupon Exhibit G, was marked for identification.)
JUDGE CANNONE: You can sure it to her and her if this refreshes her recollection about anything.
MR. JACKSON: That's my intent.
MR. BRENNAN: Your Honor, I would just mention one last time. When a question is asked that implies facts to the jury, whether it is followed up with substantive proof, an attorney needs to have that proof available.
MR. JACKSON: This is the proof.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to just let him ask whether that refreshes her memory regarding anything. That's it. And let's see where we go.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
end of sidebar.)
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look at the highlighted portion and tell me if that refreshes your recollection about anything that we discussed?
MS. MCCABE: Could I? Is the page available --
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. It's just a yes or no. Does that refresh your recollection about anything that we've been discussing?
MS. MCCABE: It's just what we discussed. It doesn't refresh.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. So it does not refresh her memory. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: I don't think that's what she said.
JUDGE CANNONE: That's what you just said.
MS. MCCABE: That was my answer.
JUDGE CANNONE: That was her answer.
MR. JACKSON: That does not refresh her recollection?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection, Your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: That was her answer. Next question, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look at the bottom of that page and tell me if that refreshes your recollection about anything we were just discussing.
MS. MCCABE: (Witness complies.)
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Ms. McCabe, having seen these does this refresh your recollection about what we were just discussing concerning that conversation?
MS. MCCABE: Regarding me asking Julie Nagel for the time?
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it does.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And what time was that -- that was a screenshot that you asked for, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that time was what?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Do you remember the time?
MS. MCCABE: I had the paper. I was reading everything.
JUDGE CANNONE: So the question is whether you remember the time?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, do I remember it. I don't remember the exact time, I can read it off the paper. That's different than a memory.
JUDGE CANNONE: That's different. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: So this does not refresh your recollection as to the time that was reflected on that screenshot?
MS. MCCABE: I can read the time --
MR. JACKSON: That's not my question. That's not my question.
MS. MCCABE: -- but I have no memory.
MR. JACKSON: I have to do it this way, Ms. McCabe, so bear with me. Does it refresh your recollection as you sit here having read this as to the time that was reflected on that screenshot?
MS. MCCABE: I don't -- sitting here today, the only reason I know there's a time is because of what's on that paper.
MR. JACKSON: But you did ask for a screenshot from Ms. Nagel, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: And that screenshot said something to the effect of outside; is that right?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection. Withdrawn.
JUDGE CANNONE: Just that question. The screenshot said something about outside?
MS. MCCABE: I believe it said, here, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Or --
MS. MCCABE: Something.
MR. JACKSON: And it was a screenshot from Ryan Nagel to Julie Nagel indicating that he had arrived?
MS. MCCABE: Can you repeat the question?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. It was a screenshot of a text message from Ryan Nagel to Julie Nagel saying, I've arrived?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In other words, I've arrived at 34 Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it was.
MR. JACKSON: Because he was intending to give her a ride home that she had asked for; is that right?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: You did see Julie Nagel go outside and approach the vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I never saw her go near the vehicle. I saw her go outside.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. Did she ultimately come back indoors?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did she come back in with anyone else?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: About what time would you estimate that to have been in the course of that evening?
MS. MCCABE: When she came back inside?
MR. JACKSON: When she walked out and came back inside.
MS. MCCABE: Soon after she went out, she talked to her brother, she came back inside.
MR. JACKSON: About what time of day was that, if you know?
MS. MCCABE: This was all happening while we were at my sister's house.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Was it 12:15, 12:30 12:45, 1 o'clock?
MS. MCCABE: Well, according to that paper --
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: That's not what I'm asking.
JUDGE CANNONE: Not according to the paper.
MR. JACKSON: Do you have an independent recollection of about, not down to the minute, about what time that was?
MS. MCCABE: I could say -- I'd have to be -- I wasn't looking at my watch that night so it's very hard for me to give a time just off of my memory. I've know what I've seen, but.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You did see both Ryan Nagel's truck and Ms. Read's SUV in front of the house at the same time, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I saw his lights in my peripheral vision on the left.
MR. JACKSON: But the lights are attached to what?
MS. MCCABE: The car. But it wasn't out front. Ms. Read's vehicle was in front.
MR. JACKSON: Right. When I say in front of 34 Fairview, we're going to talk about the spacing in just a second. I just meant out in front of the house.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, well, to the side, correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you're indicating that -- and I want to be clear about this, as you're looking out that storm door window, going from right to left, it was Ms. Read's vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Then Higgins's Jeep; is that right? A His Jeep was in front of the mailbox.
MR. JACKSON: Then behind that, was there a space and then Mr. Nagel's truck, or was the truck right behind the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: That's what I can't tell you. I just remember seeing lights. I didn't look over and pay much attention to it. I was just quickly looking at Ms. Read's car and I went back and sat down.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recall testifying at a prior hearing that it was your perception was Ms. Read's car, her SUV, the Jeep, a space, and then Mr. Nagel's truck from right to left?
MS. MCCABE: I remember Mr. Nagel's truck being over to the left in my peripheral vision. I can't give you the exact location.
MR. JACKSON: But there's no question in your mind as you sit here that Brian Higgins's Jeep was between Ryan Nagel's truck and Ms. Read's SUV. You remember that very clearly, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I know that Ms. Read's vehicle was here (indicating) and there lights in my peripheral vision over here.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. MCCABE: I wasn't -- you know, I was just looking quickly.
MR. JACKSON: So let me ask the question again. Assume that the lights are attached to something, Ryan Nagel's truck, we've already established that, what you're looking at when you look out the storm door window is Ms. Read's truck her SUV, rather, just behind that and to the left as you're looking at is Mr. Higgins's Jeep, correct? And behind that is Mr. Nagel's truck. You remember the Jeep being between the truck and the SUV, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I remember looking out the window. It was dark. I remember seeing lights over to left. That is what I remember.
MR. JACKSON: Where was the Jeep as it relates to the lights?
MS. MCCABE: I'm assuming the Jeep was still parked at the mailbox.
MR. JACKSON: Well you saw it there. I mean, it's a 5,000 pound Jeep, right?
MS. MCCABE: It was dark. I wasn't studying outside. It was a quick thing I did. I looked, I saw it, and went back to the table.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I'm asking for what the saw it part.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: You looked and you saw Ryan Nagel's truck, then you saw Higgins's Jeep, then you saw you Ms. Read's SUV, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I saw Ms. Read's SUV parked straight out front. In my peripheral vision, I saw lights that, yes, must have been attached to the truck, but I didn't study the lineup of cars. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: And where was --
MR. JACKSON: May I have one more question?
JUDGE CANNONE: One more question.
MR. JACKSON: Where was the Jeep? Was it in front of the SUV, behind Mr. Nagel's truck, or was it between the two of them. It's a simple question.
MS. MCCABE: You're asking what I saw when I looked outside.
MR. JACKSON: Yeah, I am.
MS. MCCABE: And I'm telling you exactly what I saw. It was dark. It was Karen's car there, and in my peripheral vision, I saw lights and then I went back to the table.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. That's the last question. We're breaking now.
MR. JACKSON: Break for lunch?
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Jurors, we'll take our luncheon recess.
(Jury out.)
(Court in recess at 1:00 p.m.)
(Court in session at 2:08 p.m.)
(Defendant is present with counsel.)
(Jury in.)
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Can we have Ms. McCabe back, please?
MR. YANNETTI: Your Honor, while she's coming in, may we approach sidebar briefly, please.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: I wish I had known this.
MR. YANNETTI: I wish I did, too. We just learned it just now, which is there are two people, one of home has taken Paul O'Keefe's seat. We believe that's Mr. and Mrs. Galvin. When Mr. Jackson went into the Water -- I'm sorry CJ McCarthy's, he was accosted by Mr. Galvin. Chris Albert had seen them walk in, was on his phone, called them down for the purpose of intimidating them. They made comments such as, "What are you doing in Canton? Get the heck out of here. Go back to LA," and then followed them out of CJ McCarthy's. I would also point out that Mrs. Galvin is a witness in this case now by virtue of the fact that Jen McCabe has testified that she helped prepare the timeline. And I would --
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. So she's a relative of Jen McCabe's?
MR. YANNETTI: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: I have no idea what you're talking about.
MR. YANNETTI: And we have called who was kicked out of the last trial because he assaulted my client, Ms. Read, and, you know, we have text messages from Mr. Lally talking about putting Brian Albert and Jen McCabe in with the O'Keefe's as gamesmanship that let the defense now try and point --
JUDGE CANNONE: I think that's a misrepresentation. I know what Mr. Lally said. I'm not going to allow you to say that. What are you asking me to do?
MR. YANNETTI: I'm asking you to object to both of them at a minimum from the courtroom.
JUDGE CANNONE: Both of whom? The Galvins?
MR. YANNETTI: The Galvins, yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: Do you know anything about this?
MR. BRENNAN: This is brand-new. I can't even digest as to understand what the concern is. I want to address the concern, but this is all news to me. I don't even know who they are.
JUDGE CANNONE: I don't want to -- certainly, Mr. Jackson is not afraid of them. Is he afraid of this woman?
MR. YANNETTI: Afraid of the woman?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yeah.
MR. YANNETTI: I don't think he's physically afraid.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So let's get through this. We'll have a chance to give Mr. Brennan an opportunity to think about it.
MR. YANNETTI: Sure.
JUDGE CANNONE: Everybody is perfectly safe in this courtroom. It's an open courtroom to the extent that it is, and again, like I said this morning, this is the courtroom that you chose, Mr. Yannetti, and this is what we have. It's a very tight space.
MR. YANNETTI: Understood. I just don't want anybody in this small courtroom intimidating our legal team.
JUDGE CANNONE: There will be nobody -- Jerry.
(Mr. Jerry Fahey present.)
JUDGE CANNONE: Can you assure me that nobody in this courtroom will intimidate anybody in this courtroom while we're here?
COURT OFFICER: Absolutely, Your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So your title, please.
COURT OFFICER: Regional director.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So we're all set. Thank you.
end of sidebar.)
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Sorry about the delay, jurors. We were told that we blew a fuse and that's why we couldn't get started on time, so these old courthouses. All right. We appreciate your patience. Go ahead, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your Honor.