Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveKatie McLaughlin - Cross
542 linesJUDGE CANNONE: All right. Cross-examination.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Good morning.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Morning.
MR. JACKSON: You responded to the call of an unresponsive male in the snow at 34 Fairview — that was the address you were called to, correct? The house you just looked at — that is in fact 34 Fairview, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: As Mr. O'Keefe was being transported by ambulance, uh, you were instructed by firefighter Flematti to get information about the victim from Karen Read — correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: He wasn't being transported by the ambulance at that time. He was on the stretcher, um, and Tony, who was at the head of the stretcher, asked me to get information uh from Miss Read about the patient. But he wasn't being transported in the ambulance at that time.
MR. JACKSON: Who's Tony?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, firefighter Flematti.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. Um, when you — did you follow those directives?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I did.
MR. JACKSON: When you finally approached Miss Read in order to get that medical history as best you could, what was — what did the scene look like? Who was with you or around you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, so they started to move the stretcher towards the ambulance. Um, Miss Read was sort of — um, I — I guess I would describe it as moving around the scene, so she was moving — uh, kind of going in circles. Um, so I was really just focused on uh her, trying to get her to uh converse with me and get those questions, so that — that I wasn't really uh noticing anything else at that point. I was more just trying to uh contact her, and she was moving around.
MR. JACKSON: What were you wearing at the time?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I had my uh like winter fire jacket on.
MR. JACKSON: What color is it?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's um yellow and red.
MR. JACKSON: Bright yellow, for safety purposes?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Um, when you began your actual questioning — once everybody sort of stood still, you began your questioning of Miss Read — you were standing in one spot, Miss Read was standing to your right, is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, well, the questioning started, uh, as I said, she was moving around the scene, so the questioning was ongoing as she was moving around to different locations. Um, I don't know exactly how many of the questions I got out during the time that she was moving around. At one point we did come to a stop, and at that point she was to my right.
MR. JACKSON: That's the point I want to focus your attention on, if I could. When you came to a stop, that's the point at which you recall the statement being made that you attribute to my client?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And in that group, who was there? I want to make sure I understand this exactly.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: So there was um Miss Read to my right, there was a civilian woman to my left, there was a police officer who was not directly across from me but uh I would say maybe diagonal to me, closer to Miss Read.
MR. JACKSON: I'm holding a photograph — this shows the Commonwealth's — may I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Show you what appears to be a still photograph. I'm going to ask you to take a quick look at that photograph and look up after you've studied it for a second, and tell me if you recognize —
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I recognize them.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. The people in it. May I publish, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Is it — is this an exhibit, or are you moving to introduce it?
MR. JACKSON: I'm moving to introduce it. It has not been introduced as yet.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay, um, so go ahead and have the witness adopt it first.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Do you see the person closest to — closest to the camera?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, in what appears to be a yellow and red jacket?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Who's that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That would be me.
MR. JACKSON: Who's to your right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It appears to be Miss Read.
MR. JACKSON: And to your left?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, a civilian woman.
MR. JACKSON: And across, as you said, sort of diagonal, closer to Miss Read, is a police officer. Do you know that officer's name, by the way?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know his name.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Uh, you're with that. I would ask this be marked as next in order.
JUDGE CANNONE: Is there any objection?
MR. LALLY: No objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So we are going to re-mark these exhibits today because of the problems that I indicated at sidebar. Um, how do you want to do this, Madam Reporter? I don't know where we start. [unintelligible] — how many are in evidence? Folks, it's my responsibility to make sure the record is intact, and you've heard numbers 13, 309, 247. We need to straighten this out to make sure it's appropriate for you. You know what — Madam court reporter, just mark it as the next exhibit number, whatever in the hundreds that is, and we'll take care of this today. I don't want to waste your time, folks, while we do this, but it's very important that we do it. 381. All right. All right, so was there any objection to that from the Commonwealth?
MR. LALLY: No.
JUDGE CANNONE: You're okay. Thank you. [unintelligible] — yes, thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McLaughlin, this is the time — or the scene that you've told us about, when you heard the statement that you've attributed to my client, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Sorry, say that again.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. This is a moment in time that captures a moment in time when you're standing there — to your right is Karen Read, which you've described, to your left is a civilian female, which you've described, and across from you is an officer, which you've also described — yes?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So this would be the time, or close in time to the time, that you heard the statement that you attribute to Miss Read, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The first time you ever made an official report, and/or an official report to law enforcement, regarding that statement was January 30th, 2022, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, yes and no. The statement was made in front of the police officer, so that would technically be the first time that statement was made to a police officer, within my presence. And then yes, I testified to it on January 30th as you said.
MR. JACKSON: You said it — you weren't testifying under oath, correct? Okay, said it. Said it. Okay, yes. My question was really — and I appreciate you clarifying — my question was really, the first time you actually told this statement to any law enforcement officer was on January 30th?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, we can take that down. That was when you met with Trooper Michael Proctor, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Obviously that was very close in time to the event — was it the next day? Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, the events were close. The 29th.
MR. JACKSON: Yeah, so it would be the next day, right? 29, 30. Yeah.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: The events were fresh in your mind at that time?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You obviously knew about the importance of that interview — you knew that it dealt with a police officer who had passed?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I knew it was important to talk to the police about what I heard.
MR. JACKSON: And you wanted to be accurate?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You wanted to be as detailed as you possibly could?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you understand that memories — obviously they get a little worse with time, not better with time, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: The closer in time you are to the events, the fresher your memory is going to be about the details of that event — you would agree with that, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: You told Trooper Proctor, the day after the event, on January 30th, that the statement that you attribute to my client was actually made to the female — not to you, in response to your questioning — that's what you told Trooper Proctor, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't have those notes in front of me, so I don't know that I can tell you that that's correct. But the statement was made in response to my question. However, Miss Read was looking at the civilian woman as she said that.
JUDGE CANNONE: Don't read what you think refreshes a recollection — you can show her, you cannot read it.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Take a look at the highlighted portion of that report and look up when you're finished.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay, sure.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection about what you told Trooper Proctor on January 30th?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you told Trooper Proctor —
JUDGE CANNONE: Let her — if she — hold on, hold on.
PARENTHETICAL: [Sidebar]
JUDGE CANNONE: — yes.
MR. JACKSON: In fact, what you told Trooper Proctor was, quote, "Karen then turned to her friend and stated 'I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him,'" is that correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: If you're saying that's in quotation marks in the — in that, then yes, that's what's in the report.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I'm not — you don't have to agree with me, I'm asking yes or no questions, okay?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, thank you. So in fact, what you told Trooper Proctor was that Karen Read looked at the female standing to your left, and said four times, "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him," correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And have you since learned the name or identity of the female that was standing to your left?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You're aware that the female that was standing to your left reported the exact same statement?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I'm not aware of that.
MR. JACKSON: Are you aware that the female standing to your left reported that exact same statement as "Could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Did I hit him?"
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I'm not aware of that.
MR. JACKSON: You then went back to the ambulance after you heard that statement that you believed you heard my client say?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You opened the ambulance door, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was the back door?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The side door.
MR. JACKSON: The side door. And there were two officers — I'm sorry, two firefighter paramedics in that ambulance at the time, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I believe there were more than two at that time.
MR. JACKSON: Two of them included firefighter Nuttall and firefighter Flematti?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And at that point you told them what you believed you just —
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: So I went into the back of the ambulance. I said this is his name, this is his date of birth, she says he doesn't have any medical history or allergies, doesn't take any medications, and then I said, "She's saying 'I hit him.'" And firefighter Nuttall motioned to his face and said something.
MR. JACKSON: Ask another question. So the answer to my question is — yes, you told, in front of Flematti and Nuttall, the phrase "I hit him"?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You write that in any report?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't write a report in this scenario of my job.
JUDGE CANNONE: Let her finish the answer, please.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: So there are two people that will write reports in my department on a call — one being the lead paramedic, and the other being the officer who's on scene. So those are the people that write reports, and I was neither of those, so I did not write that in a report.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, that's correct. So let me ask the question again — you didn't write it in any report?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't write it in any note?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't document that statement in any way whatsoever, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Other than my interview with Proctor and my subsequent testimony.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't document that statement in any way yourself, did you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Since January 30th, in that conversation that we just talked about with Trooper Proctor, your statement has evolved — is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know how to answer that.
MR. JACKSON: You testified yesterday to something quite different — not quite different than what you testified, what you stated to Trooper Proctor.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Respectfully, I think my testimony has been pretty consistent.
MR. JACKSON: You testified to something yesterday quite different in context than what you told Trooper Proctor — isn't that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know that that's right.
MR. JACKSON: Well, you told Trooper Proctor: Read looked at a female standing to your left, said, "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him," right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Yesterday you told these jurors that Karen Read said "I hit him," and an officer said "You what?" and she repeated "I hit him," and the officer immediately turned and went to find another sergeant — is that right, or no?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes or no.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, there was more to that testimony.
MR. JACKSON: That's not what you said yesterday.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think I said more than that — than what you just repeated — is what I said.
MR. JACKSON: Is what I said consistent with what you said yesterday? There are a lot of things that you said more of — I'm asking, is that the sum and substance of what you told these jurors yesterday?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So you would agree that from that time till yesterday, your story has evolved — it's changed?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know that I agree with that.
MR. JACKSON: You think the story that you told Trooper Proctor is exactly the same?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I understand what you're saying. So — I understand what you're saying. So has your story evolved?
MR. JACKSON: Okay, yes.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Who's Caitlin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I went to high school with somebody named Caitlin Albert.
MR. JACKSON: Somebody named Caitlin Albert. You went to high school with somebody named Caitlin Albert. So do you know Caitlin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Friends with Caitlin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I would say more acquaintances, not close friends.
MR. JACKSON: How do you describe an acquaintance?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I would say that we have mutual friends, so we might see each other occasionally because of mutual friends, but we don't have a one-on-one friendship or hang out regularly.
MR. JACKSON: Who's her dad?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Do you know who her family is?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: May we approach, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right, Miss McLaughlin, I'm going to let you step out for a few minutes. Let a court officer know when you're ready for me to come back out.
COURT OFFICER: All rise for the court, please. Back to session. You may be seated.
PARENTHETICAL: [recess]
JUDGE CANNONE: All right, so Mr. Jackson, let's mark for identification the items that you told us about at sidebar. First in order —
COURT CLERK: Do you want me to describe them for the record, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: No. So they're not to be put up on the screen. These are four items. One of them — so don't describe them. I need to see them, so let's bring them up. Mark them for identification, Madam clerk. Then you'll get them back, but I need these marked for identification, and I need to see them. Thank you. So we'll mark first — mark first. All right, thank you. All right, so we have four — four pieces of paper marked for identification that appear — you got these off of social media sites, Mr. Jackson?
MR. JACKSON: That's correct.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. When did you get these?
MR. JACKSON: I couldn't tell you the exact date, but it's been — we probably have had them for between six months and a year.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. And Commonwealth, you've not seen these before?
PARENTHETICAL: [pause]
JUDGE CANNONE: Commonwealth, you just saw these today — I'm sorry, I don't remember if I asked you that.
MR. LALLY: No.
JUDGE CANNONE: You haven't. All right, so we'll talk about Rule 14 in a little bit. But what we'll do is bring the witness in. You can ask her a question, Mr. Jackson, about her vacation that you mentioned, the drinking that you talked about, the relationship with Ms. Albert — I've forgotten the first name already — and Caitlin — and about the house. So you can ask her questions about that. And you may have trouble actually getting those into evidence, but I'm going to let you find out. You can ask her to identify them, how long ago they were, things like that. All right — could we bring in Miss McLaughlin, please?
MR. LALLY: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: And you were objecting — that these come in at all?
MR. LALLY: Correct.
JUDGE CANNONE: Oh, here's the fourth one. I'm sorry, Mr. Jackson — here's the last one. All right.
JUDGE CANNONE: So Miss McLaughlin, Mr. Jackson is going to be allowed to ask you questions outside the presence of the jury, and you're still under oath and you have to answer them truthfully. Okay?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McLaughlin — just briefly, as a predicate — when you stepped out, I just want to make sure we're very clear: did you have a conversation with anybody from the Commonwealth between the time you walked out of court and just now?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, just about whether I needed a drink of water or to use the restroom.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But nothing about the substance of your testimony? McLaughlin, I asked you before we broke if you know who Caitlin Albert is. You said that you went to high school with somebody by that name, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You in fact know that person as a friend, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I — I know her. She's more than an acquaintance — um... I would say she's an acquaintance, she's not a close friend.
MR. JACKSON: She's in a group of friends of yours?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We have mutual friends.
MR. JACKSON: How long have you known her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, probably since high school.
MR. JACKSON: When you say — and I don't want to ask your age, I wouldn't do that — how long a span of years have you known her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, since high school, so maybe ten.
MR. JACKSON: And you know her family, generally?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't.
MR. JACKSON: You don't know anything about her family?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know her family.
MR. JACKSON: Had you ever been to her house?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not that I recall ever being there.
MR. JACKSON: Not that you recall, or you haven't? Those are two different things.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't recall ever being there.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So you might have been there, you just don't recall?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't recall ever being there.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. If I were to ask you if you have ever been to her house — yes or no — you cannot answer that because you don't know, you cannot recall, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I would say — I mean, I would lean towards no. I have no recollection of ever being at her house.
MR. JACKSON: Are you friends with her on social media?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'm just going to leave all four of these up. I know what they look like. Can you do me a favor and take a look at the first document. What does that document appear to be?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, it says "Caitlin's friends."
MR. JACKSON: What does it look like? — That's a printout of — I'm sorry, what does that look like? It's a printout. Does that look like Facebook or one of the social media apps?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, yeah — I don't know exactly. Some social media.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Uh, under "Caitlin's friends," do you see your — your handle, for lack of a better phrase?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, is that you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, can you look at the next photograph. Before we talk about that next photograph — which is I — I should go in order for the record. Yeah, the first one was H. Um, before we talk about I, which is the next photograph — how long have you been social media friends, quote, "friends," with Caitlin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know — more than five years, um, probably more than eight years. I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: The second photograph — or the second document, which appears to be a photograph — it's I, is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Um, do you see yourself in that photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
MR. JACKSON: You see Caitlin in that photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, when was that photograph taken?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I have no idea.
MR. JACKSON: Where was that photograph taken?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: You have no idea how long ago that was?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't.
MR. JACKSON: What was the event depicted in that photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Is that local, or was that on a trip somewhere?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I don't know — probably local. If it's a beach, I don't remember. I've never been away, like, to a beach on vacation with all of these people, so probably local.
MR. JACKSON: And when we say local — let's talk about local — I don't mean... we may have different definitions. Where would that be?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm not as familiar with the location. I'm not sure. Maybe on the Cape, possibly.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recognize some of the other folks in that photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, there's a lot of people in that photograph, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: There's a lot of people in it.
MR. JACKSON: Did you take a trip with all those people at some point in the past?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um — take a trip to the beach? Did I go to the beach at some point with these people? Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When did you go to the beach with all those folks?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know. I don't know when this picture is from. It seems old to me.
MR. JACKSON: But — you can see yourself. I mean, yeah. Was that — did you say it seems old to you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, to me.
MR. JACKSON: Oh, 'cause it isn't like a recent photo to me. How old do you think that photograph is?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know. It could be around high school. I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: And I know Mr. Jackson didn't want to ask you how old you are — when did you get out of high school?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, 2014. Okay — I graduated.
MR. JACKSON: So could that have been around 2014?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It could be.
MR. JACKSON: So you've known Caitlin for at least that long.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: And when I say "travel," I mean travel outside of Canton — gone places together, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Posed for photographs with her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: With other folks?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Looks like socializing and partying, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Looks like socializing — maybe a small vacation. I've never been on vacation with a big group of people like this.
MR. JACKSON: That doesn't look like a — what would you call that, if that's not like a mini vacation?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: A day at the beach.
MR. JACKSON: A day at the beach. Okay, so maybe a day vacation. Sure. Okay, let's look at the next photograph — J. May I approach, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I do need to remind myself — that photograph looks a little older, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, they — they both look old to me. I don't know when they're from.
MR. JACKSON: I'm going to ask you the same questions about that. These aren't trick questions, I don't want to waste your time. What's that from?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I don't remember specifically what — or where this is.
MR. JACKSON: Do you see yourself in that photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I do.
MR. JACKSON: You see Caitlin in the photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
MR. JACKSON: You're all posing for the camera, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What's the location?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know. No idea.
MR. JACKSON: This is yet another socializing event with Caitlin that you can't recall?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't —
MR. JACKSON: I — I'm sorry, I didn't mean to step on your words. Go ahead.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know where this is exactly.
MR. JACKSON: So you've had so many socializing events with Caitlin and other folks that you can't pinpoint this one as opposed to any of the others that you've had?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No — I'm saying I can't. These photos are old. I don't know, I don't remember where these were or the circumstances around them. That's what I'm saying.
MR. JACKSON: You see how you're dressed in that photo?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Do you see the other friends that are there with you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: How many people would you estimate are in that photo?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you want me to count?
MR. JACKSON: Give me a — I don't have a photo in front of me, so just give me — is it more than five?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: 12. 12 people.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recognize those dozen people?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Did you go on a day trip with those dozen people?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, possibly.
MR. JACKSON: When?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know. I'm sorry, I don't know, I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: How many times have you gone on day trips with those dozen people?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: How about turning back to photograph I — how many times have you gone on day trips and socialized with those number of people?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's like probably double that — 20 or 25 people. I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: That's a big group of friends of yours that includes Caitlin Albert, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, a big group of mutual friends.
MR. JACKSON: So it's not just that she's a mutual friend — she's a friend, isn't that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, as I said before, I would consider — we have mutual friends, I wouldn't consider her a close friend, but yeah — I mean, that would be my answer.
MR. JACKSON: Basically grew up with her, went to high school with her —
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I didn't grow up with her. I went to high school with her.
MR. JACKSON: When I say "grow up with her," I mean you grew up in the same town as her, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Grew up in the same town.
MR. JACKSON: Went to the same high school as she did?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Socialized with the same friends as she did?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Went on day trips with her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, yes.
MR. JACKSON: And apparently have all the same friend group.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know that we have all the same friend group. These are people that we're both friends with, but I don't consider her anything more than just an acquaintance.
MR. JACKSON: I think I described it to you — the answer to my question is, you don't consider her to be anything more than an acquaintance?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I wouldn't consider her to be a close friend.
MR. JACKSON: Now let's take a look at the last photograph. Describe what's in that photograph.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, there's a — it's a picture — of me. Um, Caitlin is in it, and there seems to be other people in it as well.
MR. JACKSON: Approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Both of you can take it.
MR. JACKSON: Sorry. I just want to drop it on you. That's a closeup photograph of who?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, Caitlin — and I'm also in it.
MR. JACKSON: And you're doing what in the photograph as it relates to Caitlin?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It seems like I'm kind of kneeling down next to her, touching her.
JUDGE CANNONE: Can I see that for just a minute, please?
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. I'm sorry — can you show me?
JUDGE CANNONE: You okay? Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: So just for the record. And may I approach one more time?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: You're sort of just behind Caitlin in that photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Caitlin's the one drinking the beer?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You got your right arm around her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Both appear to be wearing swimwear?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Bathing suits?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you're giving some sort of a sign with your left hand?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, no, I'm not.
MR. JACKSON: Is that somebody else's hand that I saw?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Maybe that's Caitlin's. Yeah. I'm sorry, I don't have the photograph in front of me. I don't have it committed to memory.
MR. JACKSON: Looks like that's a photograph that you and Caitlin posed for together. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, it seems like it's a closeup of a bigger picture — it seems to be zoomed in on a group of people, which was posted on social media.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Is that right? Are you telling me that? I'm asking you — have you ever seen that posted on social media?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I don't recall seeing this picture, but if it was on social media, then okay.
MR. JACKSON: How long ago was that picture taken?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know. I don't know who took the picture.
MR. JACKSON: Where were you when the photograph was taken?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably at a beach — if we're wearing bathing suits, probably at a beach.
MR. JACKSON: Or at a beach?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I can't see a beach in the picture. We're in bathing suits.
MR. JACKSON: Could be at a beach, right? Do you recognize the bathing suit that you're wearing in the photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You literally don't even recognize your own outfit?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. So you —
MR. JACKSON: — that doesn't help define where you were and when that photograph was taken?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Do any of these photographs remind you that you've been to Caitlin's house at some point in your friendship with her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Has Caitlin ever been to your house?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not that I — not to my recollection.
MR. JACKSON: When was the last time you talked to Caitlin?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I don't remember exactly. It's probably been a few years.
MR. JACKSON: When was the last time you went to a socializing event with Caitlin?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Again, I don't remember exactly.
MR. JACKSON: Did you talk to Caitlin at any point on or around January 29th, 2022?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: When was the last time you had talked to Caitlin before January 29th, 2022?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know. Had it been a day before, a week before, a month before? Um — no. I don't talk to her. Like I said, we're not like close friends, so it's pretty infrequent that we would interact. So I don't know when the last time before that was.
MR. JACKSON: What about texting or Snapchatting, or communicating in that way?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: Had there been contact a week before the 29th?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, I don't think so.
MR. JACKSON: You don't think so, or you know so?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't think so.
MR. JACKSON: What about after the 29th? After you responded to 34 Fairview, did you ever have any communication with her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not that I can recall.
MR. JACKSON: So is that something that you think you might remember? If you responded to a house of a father where there's a police officer dead or dying — on the lawn, 30 feet from the front door — you might have had a conversation with Caitlin?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I've never had a conversation with Caitlin about that call or this case.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ever contact any of your other friends about the fact that you responded to Caitlin's parents' house?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Were you ever asked about this relationship that you had with Caitlin Albert — this friendship that you had with Caitlin Albert — on or near the time of the 29th of January?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ever disclose to anybody that you had a relationship with Caitlin Albert at or around the time of this event?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: When you went to 34 Fairview, you knew that that was the Albert family home. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: When did you learn that it was the — you now know that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I know that now.
MR. JACKSON: When did you find out?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I don't know. I don't recall. It was some point after. But I don't know when.
MR. JACKSON: Could it have been the next day?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, no.
MR. JACKSON: You and Firefighter Flematti and Firefighter Nuttall were all discussing this case pretty intently after this event. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: It's not that often in the little town of Canton that a police officer is found dead or dying on another police officer's lawn. Would you agree with that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, we responded to a medical call, so the conversation — after the fact was at the hospital debriefing the call, going over what happened, what we used for equipment, what we needed — and just like that was the extent of the conversation.
MR. JACKSON: Would you agree that this case, given its notoriety, is discussed at the fire station almost daily?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I don't know — when I'm not there — but it does get brought up. And obviously the fact that the house belongs to, or belonged at the time to, the Albert family is part of that discussion. Um, I don't know. Like I said, it gets brought up, but I just avoid it. I don't engage in the conversations.
MR. JACKSON: It was certainly enough of a subject matter that you learned, according to you, after the 29th, that that house belonged to Brian Albert — Nicole Albert — parents of your friend Caitlin Albert. Right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, well, at that point it was on the news consistently, so I don't know where that information was introduced. But it was pretty early on after the 29th. Um, I'm not — I don't recall when it was known that that was the case.
MR. JACKSON: I mean, you didn't learn that that was the Albert family home last week?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You've known it for going on two and a half years.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know exactly when I learned that that was the house.
MR. JACKSON: I realize you don't know exactly, Miss McLaughlin. I'm not asking you the day you learned. I'm asking you, you've known this basically through the lifespan of this case?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, at some point after I learned it. Right.
MR. JACKSON: I'm just trying to figure out about how long after — a week after, a month after?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm not sure. But it was more toward January 29th than it was yesterday.
MR. JACKSON: Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: I have just — yes — one other, just a couple of questions. Um, do you know any of Caitlin's siblings?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You don't know Brian Albert Jr.?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You know of any of her extended family that might be a little closer in age to you, like Colin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever met any of them?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not that I recall.
MR. JACKSON: Not that you recall, or no?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't remember meeting any of them.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, that's all I have right now.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Mr. Lally, any questions?
MR. LALLY: Sure, just a few, Your Honor. So you're not friends with Caitlin. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm sorry?
MR. LALLY: You're not friends with Caitlin Albert. Is that correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I would say she's an acquaintance, not a close friend.
MR. LALLY: Now, you were shown some photographs of you in a fairly large group with Caitlin Albert. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. LALLY: Um, you don't know when those were. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know exactly.
MR. LALLY: You don't know where you were when those were taken. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Uh, no. Not exactly. They seem old.
MR. LALLY: And just to back up — um, you knew her in high school, but you weren't friends in high school. Right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I would categorize our relationship as always being just acquaintances. I knew her, we had some mutual friends, but we were never close friends. We don't have a one-on-one relationship.
MR. LALLY: And as far as high school versus post-high school, would you see her more so during the high school years or after you graduated?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, well, probably more in high school, just because you're there every day. But afterwards, yeah, only here and there. Like I said, mutual friends, so maybe events for mutual friends — I might run into her.
MR. LALLY: To be clear — and I think you made reference to this — but that last photograph that's marked as K, that seems to be a cropped or sort of zoomed in of a larger photo. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, yes.
MR. LALLY: Now, as far as each of those photos you were shown, you are each present in a photo with Caitlin Albert in a much larger group. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. LALLY: Have you ever hung out or socialized with Caitlin Albert outside of the setting of a large group?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. LALLY: You've never been to her house before that date of January 29th, which you know?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
MR. LALLY: She's never been to your house, that you know of?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Correct.
MR. LALLY: Now as far as that first one — as far as social media is concerned, as far as a friends list — and [unintelligible], and I'm sort of putting that in air quotes — how many friends would you say you have on social media, total?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know, maybe over 500, I don't know.
MR. LALLY: And of those 500 people, how many of those 500 people would you consider actual friends?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Much, much less than that.
MR. LALLY: Less than—
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: 10.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right, why don't we wrap this up, Mr. Lally.
MR. LALLY: Sure. Just when it comes to that day that you responded — you're working with the fire department, you responded to a call on January 29th to a home, or as you say, to somewhere on the side of the road — did you have any idea whose house that was that was adjacent to where the treatment was, with regard to your patient?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar]
JUDGE CANNONE: — you thought you'd get. So that's not coming in. So if you stay within those parameters, why don't you come over here then. Just because —
MR. LALLY: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So there's been — there was an objection that this was in violation of Rule 14, to admit these exhibits. Mr. Lally, that's what you said, correct?
MR. LALLY: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. So I agree. So the exhibits don't come in. But based on this voir dire and the answers, I'm going to let you — I'm going to give you some leeway on exactly what you did. Okay. The relationship, the socialization, and the extent of it — friends on social media — those areas. You didn't quite get everything that you mentioned —
COURT OFFICER: I do.
JUDGE CANNONE: Excuse — do you need more?
MR. JACKSON: I'll work on it.
MR. JACKSON: This is awesome. Thank you. Miss McLaughlin, did you say you had a water? Is there a water waiting for you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Okay, I'm going to—
COURT OFFICER: All rise for the jury. This court is in session. Please be seated.
JUDGE CANNONE: So, jurors, from time to time there are things that I need to discuss with the lawyers, as you saw. We try and do it as quickly as we can. It's in an effort to make sure that what you see in here in this case is appropriate for you to see in here. So sometimes we spend a little time now that will save us a lot of time later. So we do appreciate your patience.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Miss McLaughlin, thank you for your patience. When we last left off I was asking you about your relationship with Caitlyn Albert. You recall that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I want to ask you a few more questions about that. You and Caitlyn Albert have known each other for how long?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Since high school, which — give me a span — probably about 10 years.
MR. JACKSON: You have traveled with Caitlyn Albert and friends. When I say traveled, I don't mean to exotic locations, I mean day trips, et cetera.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You have a group of mutual friends together, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We have mutual friends, correct.
MR. JACKSON: Those mutual friends have gone on day trips with you and Caitlyn Albert involved?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: On more than one occasion, as a matter of fact?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: On many occasions, as a matter of fact?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't — many — I don't know. More than five, I don't know. More than 10, I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: You've seen photographs of you with Caitlyn Albert on some of these day trips, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've seen at least three of those photographs?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You're friends with Caitlyn Albert on social media?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Other than the three photographs that you've seen — you just talked about — there have been other events that you've been at with Caitlyn Albert that weren't necessarily photographed, or we don't have those photographs, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably.
MR. JACKSON: You know that Caitlyn Albert is the same Caitlyn Albert that's the daughter of Brian and Nicole Albert, as you sit here?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: As I sit here today? Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you also know, as you sit here today, that Caitlyn Albert also has siblings — Brian Albert Jr.?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. As I sit here today, yes, I know that.
MR. JACKSON: And you also know, as you sit here today, that 34 Fairview was, at the time of January 29th, 2022, the Albert home, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I know that as of—
MR. JACKSON: You indicated — let me rephrase that. When you showed up at 34 Fairview that morning, did you recognize that address or recognize the home as being that of Caitlyn Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You have since learned that that was Caitlyn Albert's home?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I know that now.
MR. JACKSON: And you gave your original statement to Trooper Proctor the next day?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And from that day to this day — or let's take yesterday — from that day to yesterday, you learned that 34 Fairview was the Canton Albert family home, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: You're asking if I know from between those two dates?
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Between the time you spoke — in this report — till yesterday, when you testified, you— — now know that that's the Albert home?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you also indicated that between that report that you gave to Trooper Proctor — that statement that you gave to Trooper Proctor — and yesterday's testimony, your statement has evolved. You've already admitted that, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't think I agreed with you on that. It's changed, it's different. I've always testified to — I feel as though my testimony has been consistent.
MR. JACKSON: I appreciate how you might feel. I'm just interested in the actual facts. You didn't tell Trooper Proctor anything about this officer questioning my—
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So I'm going to see counsel at sidebar because I think this has morphed into a different area.
MR. JACKSON: You agree, Ms. McLaughlin, the statement that you gave to Trooper Proctor is not the same as the statement that you gave to these jurors yesterday. Right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Just — yes. Couple of other questions. When you did make this statement to Trooper Proctor, your visit to Canton PD was coordinated by another officer — to put you and Trooper Proctor together for the interview, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't recall that.
MR. JACKSON: You recall being contacted by a completely different officer to say, "Hey, Trooper Proctor wants to talk to you, come on in to Canton PD, want to have an interview"?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't remember exactly how the interview was set up.
MR. JACKSON: So that was my next question. You may have just told me this — do you have any recollection of who set that interview up?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't.
MR. JACKSON: Does the name Kevin Albert sound familiar?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You know Kevin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You know him to be a police officer at Canton PD?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You know him to be the brother of Brian Albert?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: That's all I have.