Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveJennifer McCabe - Cross (Part 1)
1,850 linesCOURT OFFICER: All persons having any business before the Honorable Beverly Cannone, Justice of the Norfolk Superior Court and for the County of Norfolk, draw near, give your attendance and you shall be heard. God save the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Court is now open.
JUDGE CANNONE: You may be seated. the Commonwealth versus Karen Read. Good morning again, counsel. Good morning again, Miss Read. : Good morning, Your Honor. I want to ask you those same three questions. Were you all able to follow the instructions and refrain from discussing this case with anyone since you left here on Friday?
MR. LALLY: Yes. Were you also able to follow the instructions and refrain from doing any independent research or investigation into this case?
MR. LALLY: Yes. Did anyone happen to see, hear, or read anything about this case since we left here on Friday?
MR. LALLY: No. Thank you very much. May we have Miss McCabe, please?
COURT CLERK: So again, just be mindful. ...the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
MS. MCCABE: I do.
JUDGE CANNONE: Thank you. Good morning. All right, Mr. Jackson, whenever you're ready.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your Honor. Miss McCabe, family is important to you, is it not?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, it's probably fair to say that family is one of the most important things in your life?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated on Friday that you knew John O'Keefe and you considered him a friend?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You also indicated that you know Miss Read and at some point you considered her a friend?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Clearly John O'Keefe was not family, was he?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: He was not a McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: No. He was not an Albert?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Karen Read is not family?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Not a McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: She's not an Albert?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, when you were at Waterfall on the evening of the 28th going into the early morning hours of the 29th, you spent some time with John O'Keefe and Karen Read, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see any tension between the two of them at the time?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, they seemed like a normal couple to you?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't see them interact much.
MR. JACKSON: They were both engaging with you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I had separate conversations with them.
MR. JACKSON: So John O'Keefe — we've seen from several videos, I'm not going to play the video — John O'Keefe was situated for the most part over in that corner, as the camera is looking, the right corner of the bar, along with you. The Kolokithases — I think Matt McCabe was over there as well, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I can't be sure. But I know I spoke to Karen in that corner. And certainly you saw nothing to suggest that there was any tension or discord between and among those individuals — certainly between Miss Read and Mr. O'Keefe? Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. When you left Fairview — were you among the first to leave or among the last to leave?
MS. MCCABE: I left with — there were four of us that left total. It was myself, my husband Matt, Julie Nagel, and Sarah Levinson.
MR. JACKSON: When you walked out, Karina Kolokithas was close by, close in, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, wait — are you talking about leaving the Waterfall?
MR. JACKSON: The Waterfall. Oh, I'm sorry, I was confused. I was talking about Fairview. Leaving the Waterfall, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, we were one of the last to leave.
MR. JACKSON: All right. And Karina Kolokithas was sort of in tow right with you as you're walking out, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Karen Read, my client, was also heading that direction as well, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You said something to Miss Read, did you not, as you walked out?
MS. MCCABE: We were in a conversation.
MR. JACKSON: Did you say specifically, "You're coming with me," to Karen?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't say that — not exactly those words. What exactly were the words that you used?
MS. MCCABE: I said, "Why don't you come with me?"
MR. JACKSON: And you even waited outside in what was ultimately freezing cold temperatures for a stretch, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You could take a look — with Court's permission, Exhibit 53 — I'd like to play about a 15-second clip from that. Okay, actually it's a little bit longer than that. It may be — we'll pause for the record. You all know this is about runtime 12:10 and 17 seconds or so. If you could move that up, Mr. Woll, to 12:10 and about 45 seconds. That's close enough. Miss McCabe, do you recognize what's depicted in this portion of the video?
MS. MCCABE: I see a car. It's kind of hard to see. I don't know what the thing on the white thing is.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, let's go ahead and play it. Let's see if you recognize — pause, please. That's a terrible place to pause. Little further. It's also not super clear. Can you see a person in that video?
MS. MCCABE: From where I'm sitting now, it's a little tough.
MR. JACKSON: Let's go forward. I'll actually re-enhance that just a little bit. Did you see a person in the background right there?
MS. MCCABE: I don't — I honestly don't — I can't make out what that is.
MR. JACKSON: Let's go forward. See this now — do you see?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. The lighting is terrible. I apologize.
MR. JACKSON: Not my video. Do you know who that person is?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: That's you, isn't it?
MS. MCCABE: I can't tell from that picture if that's me.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. May you play a little bit further forward? Now, with the flag out of the way, do you recognize anybody in the foreground down at the bottom right?
MS. MCCABE: That looks to be John — Mr. O'Keefe.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Do you see someone to his right?
MS. MCCABE: I do.
MR. JACKSON: And who is that person?
MS. MCCABE: I cannot make her out — make it out in the photo.
MR. JACKSON: And pause. You see the person with the sort of white shoes just above the car?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Does that appear to be you?
MS. MCCABE: I can't make that out — that it's me. But I know I was there and I know I spoke with them.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So you do recall walking outside and sort of waiting and hovering in about that area, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I was talking with them.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Does it appear that you're talking with them?
MS. MCCABE: That looks like they've walked away.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, it looked like they walked away without talking to you outside, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Well, do you have video of moments before that when I was standing talking to them?
MR. JACKSON: See, this is the point where I get to ask the questions and you get to answer. I'm asking you — you see yourself standing in the parking lot after John and the person who walked away, right?
MS. MCCABE: Walk away? Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let's play for just a few more seconds. Pause. And what do you appear to be doing at that point?
MS. MCCABE: Walking to my car.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, so you turned around and left after O'Keefe and the person to his right walk away, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: As you sit here, even though the video leaves a little to be desired, you know that John O'Keefe left with her, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So the person to his right — the more petite person with long hair — that would be Karen, I would assume?
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: So you waited out in the parking lot for a few minutes after you said, or joked, "You're coming with me," or something like that, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't — no, I was speaking to them and then I walked to my car.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't say to Mr. O'Keefe "You're coming with me" — you said to Karen Read "You're coming with me," or something to that effect, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Right. Mr. O'Keefe was not outside when I said to Karen, "You're coming with me." I told Karen, "You're coming with me," because John was still in the bar with Matt.
MR. JACKSON: So you asked Karen to come with you in your car?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: To give her a ride?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Separate from John O'Keefe?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I figured he could go with Matt because they were still in the bar.
MR. JACKSON: Was there a reason why you wanted to separate Miss Read from Mr. O'Keefe at that moment?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Why not just walk to your car with Matt, go where you're going to go?
MS. MCCABE: Matt was still inside.
MR. JACKSON: So you thought it was important enough to make the statement "You're coming with me," or something to that effect, to my client, to separate her from John O'Keefe, even though your testimony is John O'Keefe was just inside the bar? ada lally: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained as to that form. Ask it differently.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Did you believe it was important at that point to ask Miss Read to come with you, which would separate her from John?
MS. MCCABE: There was never any idea of separating them. The idea was "You're coming with me," not "You two are coming with me."
MR. JACKSON: Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Incorrect.
MR. JACKSON: By definition, if she came with you, you'd be separating her from John, wouldn't you? That can be answered yes or no. By definition, your statement to her — "You come with me" — would separate her from John, would it?
MS. MCCABE: It would not, because we were all going back to Fairview Road, but not at the same time.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Your idea is to bring Karen with you, separate and apart from John?
MS. MCCABE: We were — wait — we were waiting for John to come out, and I said, "Why don't you just come with me?" It was innocent.
MR. JACKSON: I'm not asking for your explanation. You'll get to that with Mr. Lally. I'm asking for a yes or no answer. By definition, your invitation would separate Karen from John, would it not?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Would it or would it not separate John and Karen for the night?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Now, when you arrived at Fairview, some folks were already there, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Who's already there?
MS. MCCABE: Brian Higgins, Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, Caitlin Albert, Julie Nagel, Sarah Levinson, and Brian Albert Jr.
MR. JACKSON: And then you arrived. As we saw, you walked through the parking lot, got in your car. You arrived, I presume, with your husband Matt?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I want to ask a question about Mr. Higgins. You mentioned on Friday that you saw his vehicle when you got to the scene, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You said that it was pulled up a little bit in front of the mailbox, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Can we have Exhibit 66, with — the Court's permission, please.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: This is a digital model of the location. Do you recognize this?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: It appears to be a relative scale model of 34 Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: This would be the front door, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And where's the mailbox? If you can point to it with the laser pointer.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: So you're pointing to an area just in front of a car that's in the driveway, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And then the driveway's to the right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And along this line is the front lawn area and property line of 34, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that that Jeep was just a little bit in front of the mailbox, meaning about there, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And the rear end of that Jeep would be abutting — abutting up against the driveway, yes, or at least the line of the driveway, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That's quite a bit of detail about where that Jeep was. Would you agree?
MS. MCCABE: No, because I drove down the street and I took a left into the driveway and there was a Jeep there.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What I'm asking is, you didn't just say — your memory was not just somewhere in front of the house. It's literally right in front of the mailbox, the front end of it adjoining the line of the driveway, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That detail obviously stuck out in your mind.
MS. MCCABE: It did, because I was wondering whose Jeep it was.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss that detail with your husband at any point?
MS. MCCABE: Not sure.
MR. JACKSON: You're not sure? Might —
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if I said whose Jeep is that. No.
MR. JACKSON: I don't mean then. I mean between then and now. Have you and Mr. McCabe ever discussed where that Jeep was — your memories of where that Jeep was?
MS. MCCABE: Possibly.
MR. JACKSON: You're aware that he put the Jeep in the exact same place that you did. Are you aware of that?
MS. MCCABE: I am. Oh wait — no, excuse me, repeat the question.
MR. JACKSON: You're aware that he puts the Jeep in the exact same spot you just put the Jeep — right in front of that mailbox?
MS. MCCABE: I know he knows where the Jeep was. I'm not aware what he said in here.
MR. JACKSON: Does he know where the Jeep was because you told him what to say about the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: Absolutely not. It's — because we drove together in the car and I asked —
JUDGE CANNONE: One at a time, please.
MS. MCCABE: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to step on your words.
MR. JACKSON: That's okay. You can continue. Thank you.
MS. MCCABE: Appreciate that.
JUDGE CANNONE: I don't think we got your answer, though. Okay — yeah, I think Madam Court Reporter was asking for your answer. When you repeat your answer — to the question: did he know where the Jeep was because you told him where the Jeep was?
MS. MCCABE: I did not need to tell Matt where the Jeep was. He knew because we were in the car together.
MR. JACKSON: But you two discussed it —
MS. MCCABE: When are you asking?
MR. JACKSON: At any time between January 29th and today.
MS. MCCABE: I'm sure we have. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were also interviewed by Trooper Proctor on January 29th, 2022, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you were asked a series of open-ended questions — what did you see and where did you see, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Nobody put any words in your mouth? Nobody told you what to say at that time?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And you told Trooper Proctor that when you arrived at the scene, after you got there, you, quote, "first observed the vehicle" — meaning Miss Read's SUV — "parked on the street by the driveway, facing the direction of Chapman," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Can I — do you have something I can look at to refresh my memory?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Do you not have a memory of exactly what you told Trooper Proctor?
MS. MCCABE: Well, I know what I —
MR. JACKSON: Yes or no — you need your memory refreshed?
MS. MCCABE: I would like to see what the report says, please.
MR. JACKSON: Permission?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Direct your attention to paragraph three. This is the face page. You'll review that, especially the highlighted portion. Let me know after you've reviewed it. Just read it to yourself. Do you have that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I know — I told —
MR. JACKSON: I'm asking you. I'm so sorry to do this. I don't mean to be rude. I'm just asking you — does that or does that not refresh your recollection regarding what you said to Trooper Proctor on the 29th?
MS. MCCABE: Well, I know what I said to Trooper Proctor on the 29th.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I have to do it this way — court rules. Does that help you with your — recollection of what you told Trooper Proctor?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't tell — I told Trooper Proctor the car was outside. When I looked at the front door, it was straight outside.
MR. JACKSON: I can't quite get the answer I'm looking for. The court is going to require me to ask this question again. Does that refresh your recollection, yes or no, as to what you told Trooper Proctor?
MS. MCCABE: I did not say this to Trooper Proctor. No, it doesn't help.
MR. JACKSON: No. Okay. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. So you did speak to Trooper Proctor on the 29th, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And Trooper Proctor asked you some very specific questions about where things were, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Focused on Miss Read's SUV, didn't he? He asked you questions about where Miss Read's SUV —
MS. MCCABE: You can show me in the report — just let me read it.
MR. JACKSON: So just off of what I just read, is that what you're going off of?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'm asking for your memory. You're testifying.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, so my memory is exactly where the car was.
JUDGE CANNONE: Hold on. So it's very important that both of you — one person at a time speaks. Okay? Madam Court Reporter has to capture what you're both saying and she can't do it simultaneously. So the best way to do that is — Miss McCabe, just let counsel ask the question and then you answer. And if it takes a lot more time than we expect it to take, it does. Okay? So just — thanks. Go ahead, Mr. — Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. I'll slow it down. Did you talk to Trooper Proctor about where the SUV was?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. And he asked you questions about where it was situated outside, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you told him that you first observed it parked on the street by the driveway, facing the direction of Chapman, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I told him that when I looked out the front door the car was straight ahead, and yes, it was facing up Chapman.
MR. JACKSON: And you left out a little part — "by the driveway" — correct?
MS. MCCABE: That could have been his interpretation or an error on his part.
MR. JACKSON: I see. So Trooper Proctor is wrong about what you said?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson —
MR. JACKSON: I'll let him have it. Do you think he's wrong about what you said?
MS. MCCABE: I 100% said it was straight out the front door.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Next question, please.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. And during the course of that conversation, you never once — Miss McCabe, not once — mentioned a several-ton Jeep with a snowplow attached to it, did you?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if I did or not.
MR. JACKSON: Let's take another look — to refresh — to see the report.
PARENTHETICAL: [objection]
MR. JACKSON: Do you think that will help you?
MS. MCCABE: I'll take a look at it.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Direct your attention once again to paragraph three. You had an opportunity to —
MS. MCCABE: I have, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That looks like a report from Trooper Proctor of your interview, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That interview was taken on January 29th, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That interview was taken just a few hours — not days or weeks, hours — after the events in question, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you were asked what you saw, what you observed in front of 34 Fairview on that morning —
MS. MCCABE: Correct? I'm sorry, the night before, correct?
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Specific questions about Miss Read's vehicle, okay? And when you said where you remember Miss Read's vehicle being, you placed it in the exact spot where you're now saying there was a Jeep with a snowplow on, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Incorrect. I never placed Miss Read's car in the spot where Mr. Higgins's vehicle was.
MR. JACKSON: So Trooper Proctor was taking notes about what you were saying — he just got — it wrong?
MS. MCCABE: You'd have to ask Trooper Proctor.
MR. JACKSON: I will. And you never mentioned, according to that report, not one word about a Jeep, right?
MS. MCCABE: I was — I may never have been asked about a Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: Ah. So if you weren't asked about a Jeep, you also weren't asked about a Nissan Altima — mention that?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Because what he asked you was "what did you observe in front of the house," ma'am. That's what he asked you, wasn't it?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And you said "I observed her car" — I —
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And you never mentioned the Jeep, did you?
MS. MCCABE: You are not portraying what the conversation was.
MR. JACKSON: Did you or did you not mention a Jeep sitting right by that driveway to Trooper Proctor, yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: It's not — in the report. I don't recall if he asked me about a Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: Now, following the events of January 28th-29th, you spoke extensively to Chris and Julie Albert, correct?
MS. MCCABE: What do you mean by "extensively"?
MR. JACKSON: Did you speak at all?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, we did.
MR. JACKSON: Between then and now, to Chris and Julie Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Do I speak to Chris and Julie Albert? Have you spoken to them about these events between then and now — about this case? Is that what you're asking?
MR. JACKSON: Yes.
MS. MCCABE: Mr. Jackson, of course I speak to them all the time — about the vicious harassment we are all receiving.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, that wasn't my question. My question was did you talk to — them about this case?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I realize you want to give additional answers. I'm asking you very specific questions.
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Objection as to the form. We've talked about this at sidebar, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: You've talked to them about the details of that night, correct — 28th going into the morning of the 29th?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: We've talked about what happened at the bar, correct?
MS. MCCABE: We've spoken about how we were all at the bar and Karen and John came in.
MR. JACKSON: Is that yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You've spoken to them about your memory of what happened at the house at 34 Fairview that night, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've spoken to them about who was at the bar — — not just what happened, but who was there, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You talked to them about the timing of the night, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't think specifically, no.
MR. JACKSON: When people came to the bar, when they left, when people got to Fairview, when they left Fairview — things of that nature?
MS. MCCABE: Well, they were at the bar, so they know who was there and when they left.
MR. JACKSON: I'm not asking if you know what they know — I'm asking if you've ever spoken to them about these issues, yes or no.
MS. MCCABE: I can't be sure if we've spoken about the timeline.
MR. JACKSON: And you've talked to them about when they got there and when they left?
MS. MCCABE: I have no idea when they arrived at the Waterfall.
MR. JACKSON: Once again, Miss McCabe, that's not what my — — question. Do you understand my question? Have you spoken to them about their memory of that night and when they may —
MS. MCCABE: Oh, they have not shared with me when they got there or when they left.
MR. JACKSON: In the two years — or two and a half years — since this event, you've had extensive conversations with your friends and family about this circumstance, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've told them your observations — your story — correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Your observations of the night, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And they told you their observations of the night, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So y'all have compared and contrasted your perspectives of what happened that night, correct?
MS. MCCABE: We've tried to figure out what — — happened to John, our friend.
MR. JACKSON: And you've talked to them extensively about your observations and what your story — or your version — is. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: To be honest, not extensively. Speaking about it is very painful and difficult. What does "extensively" mean? More than twice? Will you tell me?
MR. JACKSON: I'm asking the questions, Mrs. McCabe. That's how this works.
MS. MCCABE: I understand. But "extensively" would mean almost every day.
MR. JACKSON: Do you talk to them almost every day?
MS. MCCABE: I do, but not about the case.
MR. JACKSON: Subjects about this case come up every day?
MS. MCCABE: The harassment of the case does, yes.
MR. JACKSON: What about the specific facts of the case?
MS. MCCABE: No. The facts aren't spoken about as much as — — the vicious harassment is spoken about.
MR. JACKSON: So you've told them your version of the events, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And they've told you their version of the events, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And remind me — Chris and Julie Albert are in fact Colin's parents, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: At some point you became aware that your daughter Allie was involved in this matter to some extent, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You became aware that there was an extraction of your phone that revealed some data about her whereabouts.
MS. MCCABE: That's not how I became aware.
MR. JACKSON: Life 360, yes?
MS. MCCABE: I know what that is.
MR. JACKSON: That's what I'm asking about. You became — well — you know your phone was extracted, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I willingly — — hand it over. My phone —
MR. JACKSON: We'll get to that.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, okay.
MR. JACKSON: You know that your phone was extracted?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I handed it over.
MR. JACKSON: And you know that your daughter's whereabouts were revealed based on data on that phone, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I — that is not how I became aware of my daughter's whereabouts.
MR. JACKSON: You testified at the state grand jury, questioned by ADA Lally, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked about Life 360. Yes, you answered those questions very fluidly.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Yes, I know what Life 360 is. I use it all the time. It's an app, et cetera. Absolutely.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let's go over that for a second. You admitted that it works as a, quote, "GPS as far as where people go and everywhere — — that you go," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that it works as a reliable, quote unquote, tracking device — is that your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that you rely on it so you know where your kids are at all times — is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you even said that it's a, quote unquote, "good parenting tool" — is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And the reason you said that is because it's accurate in your experience and it's reliable — is that right?
MS. MCCABE: It's a good tool, but it is not always accurate.
MR. JACKSON: But you said when you testified in front of the grand jury that it's accurate and it works as a GPS as far as where you go and — — everywhere you go, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Jackson, did you say that? Can I see it?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Lines 13 through 15.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, ma'am. Mhm. Okay. Yeah, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection?
MS. MCCABE: It does, yes. Question and answer — well, I just don't see the word "accurate" on there. I don't know if I missed it.
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McCabe, does that refresh your recollection — the question and answer about whether you said it works as sort of a GPS as far as where you go and everywhere that you go, correct? And your answer was "yeah," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So where did Allie go after she supposedly dropped off Colin Albert?
MS. MCCABE: She went nowhere.
MR. JACKSON: Did you check her Life 360 app to verify —
MS. MCCABE: — that she went, quote, "nowhere"? At that point I had no reason to check her.
MR. JACKSON: So the answer is no — you didn't.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did you ever verify through the Life 360 app that in fact Allie did not go home but rather was out driving until after 1:30 a.m.? Ever check the app and see that?
MS. MCCABE: Did I ever check the Life 360 app for that? No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But you believed her when she said she came home?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And just like you believed her when she said she picked up Colin, dropped him off, and then came home?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. The Alberts have — had — a dog, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What was the dog's name?
MS. MCCABE: Chloe.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that on the morning of January 29th — — still relatively dark out — you burst into the bedroom of Brian and Nicole Albert's home, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You did that specifically to wake up — according to you — Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Where was the dog?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: So you'll agree that at least from their perspective, you walked in the front door unexpectedly, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You walked upstairs unexpectedly, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Still dark outside, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You walked through their door — and you said you burst through the door into a dark room where they were sleeping, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Albert said that you were somewhat hysterical. Did you agree with that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You're loud, right?
MS. MCCABE: I was trying to wake them up.
MR. JACKSON: You were — — somewhat chaotic?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you don't remember a 70-pound German shepherd having any reaction?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: In fact, you don't remember the dog being there at all, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You never saw that dog, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I have no memory of seeing that dog.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So as you sit here today, you cannot say that the dog was there because you don't have a memory of ever seeing it?
MS. MCCABE: I did not see it. No.
MR. JACKSON: And remind me — once again, when you were leaving that night — that early morning — who was the last person to leave?
MS. MCCABE: It's Caitlin. I believe she left after us.
MR. JACKSON: We've talked about this and I want to get a little bit more detail about it. You indicated that at some point you — — looked outside and you saw Karen Read's SUV in front of the house — safe to say, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: About what time was that — that you first saw it?
MS. MCCABE: I can just give you maybe approximates. I know I texted when I saw them, so whatever time that was.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Let's see if we can narrow that down just a little bit. You also indicated that you saw Ryan Nagel's vehicle outside.
MS. MCCABE: Saw lights.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Lights belonging to the vehicle, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I knew there was another vehicle outside.
MR. JACKSON: And where was that in relation to Miss Read's vehicle?
MS. MCCABE: It was behind it. I didn't pay much attention to it.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And where was the Jeep in relation to Ryan Nagel's — — vehicle and Karen Read's SUV?
MS. MCCABE: I remember seeing Karen Read's SUV and then I saw the lights of Ryan Nagel. I did not pay attention to where it was. I was just looking at Miss Read's vehicle.
MR. JACKSON: Was Ryan Nagel's vehicle — and those lights that you remember — were they in front of the Jeep or behind the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: I am not certain.
MR. JACKSON: Haven't you testified previously that you remember the Jeep being between Ryan Nagel's vehicle and the SUV?
MS. MCCABE: I am not certain where Ryan Nagel's vehicle was.
MR. JACKSON: So as you sit here now, you don't know if it was in front of the Jeep — as you placed it by the mailbox — definitely it would be behind the Jeep, or somewhere in —
MS. MCCABE: — between. It definitely was not in front of the Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: Definitely was not in front of the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: So it was definitely behind the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: Behind, or to the side. I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: Well, if it's parked on the street in front of the house, it's not going to be beside the Jeep, right? That's going to be in the middle of — it would have been in the middle of the road, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So if it's pulled over, it's behind the Jeep. Okay. So now we've narrowed that down: it's Karen Read's SUV — as we're looking at the property from the street — to the right of that, behind that, Ryan Nagel's vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You sure about that?
MS. MCCABE: If my memory serves, right — yes.
MR. JACKSON: If your memory serves. Okay. So you were asked about the arrival of Mr. Nagel's car at the state grand jury — do you recall that?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so.
MR. JACKSON: That was in April — April 26th, 2022. Does that sound about right? I don't expect you to remember that date.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked what time you saw Ryan Nagel's vehicle arrive at the location, and you indicated that it was 12:23. You remember that?
MS. MCCABE: Do you have it?
MR. JACKSON: I do. Yeah. Yes. Take a look at line 21 on the highlighted. Okay. May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked, "Do we know what time the brother came?" — meaning Ryan Nagel — correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And the question from ADA Lally was — — that was from a grand juror. The question from ADA Lally was "if you know," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And your answer was "I believe he was out front at 12:23" — is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And the reason you could be so precise with that time, Ms. McCabe, is because you had asked Julie Nagel to give you her text messages with Ryan for that night and you would refresh your recollection about the time, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: All right. And you've also testified that as soon as you saw Miss Read's SUV, you texted John — is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: "Here?!" — exclamation point, question mark — that was the first text, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: But your text to John was at 12:27. You recall that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That's four minutes after you know — — Ryan Nagel arrived at the scene, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Since Karen Read arrived before Ryan Nagel, and Ryan Nagel arrived at 12:23, that means — and you didn't notice the SUV until 12:27 — that means her car was there for at —
MS. MCCABE: Jackson, is that right? Ryan Nagel texted his sister at 12:23 "here," and then he texted again that he was going to leave. Then Julie Nagel went outside.
MR. JACKSON: That's not my question.
MS. MCCABE: I'm explaining what happened in the four minutes.
MR. JACKSON: You can explain at another question. My question is very specific. Given the fact that Karen Read, by definition, arrived at the location before Ryan Nagel, and Ryan Nagel arrived at 12:23, that means — and you didn't notice the SUV until 12:27 — that means her car was there for at — ...least 4 minutes before you ever noticed. Correct? Is that correct? Can you answer that question?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: The snow condition — we've heard a lot about the snow condition. I'm not going to belabor that, but it's safe to say that you would agree with me that it was a light dusting of snow, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I should be specific about the time. Um, it was a light dusting of snow at or around 12 to 12:30, 12:45, something like that. It was starting to accumulate.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, and accumulate means stick to the ground, not just fall and melt, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So it was starting to turn like a very thin blanket of white?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated — or you indicated... ...on Friday that you saw some sort of tire tracks. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: On Friday, I don't believe I — I...
MR. JACKSON: I thought in your testimony to Mr. Lally on Friday you indicated that you saw some tire tracks.
MS. MCCABE: I could be wrong. Yes, I don't remember that.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, well, let me ask you: did you see any tire tracks at one point?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, when was that point?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: Was it before Miss Read's vehicle got there? Was it after? Let's use that as a barometer first.
MS. MCCABE: I believe it was after Miss Read's vehicle was there, because that's why I was drawn to look outside.
MR. JACKSON: And what did those tire tracks look like? How would you describe them?
MS. MCCABE: Almost like — as a — as a wave went... ...like this. So like a half J, to my recollection. It was almost like — started — if Miss Read's vehicle's here, let's pretend — it was kind of like that, like a bit of a wave. So if you started coming towards her, it'd be more of a wave.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, like this in the road? What it sounds like is — perhaps I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps what you're describing is tracks in the middle of the road. If someone is pulling off parallel, it would pull to the right and then stop, and those are the tracks that you saw — that's the wave that you saw.
MS. MCCABE: It wasn't, um, up to her car. It was — it doesn't look like your — your description.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, fair enough, fair enough. I'm just trying here. So it didn't go up to her car — those tracks belong to somebody else?
MS. MCCABE: Well, when I saw her car, had it already moved up?
MR. JACKSON: Well, wait a minute — you already said that when you saw her car it was directly there, and then it moved at one point — that's what I'm asking about. Let's just take the point at which you first saw the car.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. You first saw the car — that's when you saw the tire tracks. You just said that.
MS. MCCABE: No, I did not say when I first saw the car I saw the tire tracks.
MR. JACKSON: I thought you just said a couple of questions ago that you saw the tire tracks because your attention was drawn to her car — that would be the first... ...time you saw her car, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm saying I saw the tire tracks because I was looking out at her car. I never said when I saw the tire tracks or where her car was when I saw the tire tracks.
MR. JACKSON: Well, I thought you just said — as I asked when did you see the tire tracks, you said "I saw the tire tracks but I looked and saw her car because my attention was drawn to her car." I saw the tire tracks — that would be the first time you looked at her car, correct?
MS. MCCABE: It doesn't have to be the first time I looked at her car. I looked out multiple times.
MR. JACKSON: Did you see the tire tracks the second time?
MS. MCCABE: Well, I'm not exactly sure.
MR. JACKSON: Did you see them the third time?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, so could have been the first time, could have been — they didn't lead to the back tires of her car?
PARENTHETICAL: [pause]
MR. JACKSON: Yes, in addition to — I'm sorry — Trooper Proctor interviewing you on the 29th, you also gave extensive testimony on April 26, 2022 in front of a state court grand jury, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Let me have just a moment.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you were asked about the location of Miss Read's vehicle. I'm still staying with that for just a quick second, if you don't mind. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked where that SUV was in relation to Ryan Nagel's car. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Would I be able to look at it to refresh my memory, please?
PARENTHETICAL: [pause — jackson retrieving grand jury transcript]
MR. JACKSON: Well, let's... ...start with this: do you remember being asked about Karen Read's SUV and Ryan Nagel's truck?
MS. MCCABE: To be honest, I've had a few grand juries, so if you could show me what you're talking about, I would greatly appreciate it.
MR. JACKSON: Come here — just over there. Yes, may I approach? Please, to speed things up, Your Honor, I have just a moment.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay, take your time.
MR. JACKSON: This is the entire grand jury — direct your attention to 182 to 187. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Thank you. That's the entirety of your state court grand jury. Okay, I'm going to direct your attention to pages 182 to 187. You can probably scan those pretty quickly and just let me know after you scan those.
MS. MCCABE: Okay. Reviewing Those pages should — oh. Okay. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Did you—
MS. MCCABE: I did.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Um, as you glanced those — my question is a relatively simple one, relatively simple one, but I wanted you to have an opportunity. Um, at no point when you were describing the vehicles that were out front in front of 34 Fairview... ...on that night, at no point under oath in front of that grand jury did you ever mention a Jeep, did you?
MS. MCCABE: I was not asked about any other vehicles out front.
MR. JACKSON: So when you were talking about the vehicles that you saw in front, and were going into some painstaking detail talking about the black SUV and Ryan Nagel's truck, you just left out the Jeep because nobody asked you about it?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't read anything in that about Ryan Nagel's vehicle. Did you miss it?
MR. JACKSON: I must have. Okay, is it in there?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, it is.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. In fact, you were asked about Ryan Nagel's vehicle, weren't you?
MS. MCCABE: If you want to show me...
MR. JACKSON: Well, I don't want to sit here and — did you review your—
MS. MCCABE: I just read it all. I didn't see it.
MR. JACKSON: Mm. Can't... ...interrupt what I'm talking about. Okay, I will do the same. Okay, as you reviewed those pages, you were asked about the cars that you saw in front, did you not?
MS. MCCABE: I was asked about Miss Read's vehicle.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And at no point did you mention a Jeep being behind Miss Read's vehicle, as you testified today, correct?
MS. MCCABE: The questions were all about Miss Read's vehicle.
MR. JACKSON: At no point — my question is this, yes or no: did you ever mention in that grand jury that there was a Jeep behind Miss Read's vehicle? Yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure. I'd have to read it all.
MR. JACKSON: As you sit here, do you recall mentioning the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: I was asked about Miss Read's vehicle, and those are the... ...questions I answered.
MR. JACKSON: I can't — you need to keep your voice up. Sorry. Let's try this again: as you sit here, do you recall mentioning the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: I would have to reread the transcript.
MR. JACKSON: You don't have to reread the transcript to answer that question. Do you recall mentioning the Jeep? If you don't, you don't.
MS. MCCABE: I may not have been asked about the Jeep, so I did not mention the Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. Did you — Mr. Higgins — between then and now, the date of the incident and now, have you ever had a conversation with Mr. Higgins about where his Jeep was parked?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever had a conversation with Mr. Higgins about anything having to do with this... ...case?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe so.
MR. JACKSON: Did anyone — leaving Mr. Higgins aside — did anyone tell you anything about Mr. Higgins's Jeep and what he testified to?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Were you ever asked by anybody to mention a Jeep being behind Miss Read's SUV in this trial?
MS. MCCABE: Can you repeat the question, please?
MR. JACKSON: Were you ever asked by anybody to make sure you mention a Jeep being parked behind Miss Read's SUV in this trial?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I recall.
MR. JACKSON: Now, after you arrived and you noticed this SUV outside, you started paying somewhat close attention to it, did you not?
MS. MCCABE: I went to the front door and looked out the window at the vehicle.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. As a matter of fact, you texted as soon as you... ...saw the vehicle, at 12:27, "here," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And then a few minutes later at 12:31 you texted "pull behind me" to John. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And then at 12:40 you texted "hello," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And at 12:42 you texted "where are you"?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And at 12:45 you texted "hello," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So that's five text messages, and each time you texted him you were walking to the door and looking out at the vehicle, as you testified, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I know for the first two I was.
MR. JACKSON: You testified at another hearing, another proceeding, on June 8th, 2023, correct?
MS. MCCABE: June, correct.
MR. JACKSON: In that other proceeding, did you testify that you got up and sat down and got up and sat down every time you were... ...texting?
MS. MCCABE: Possibly.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So if you got up, walked over to the door, and you see the SUV and you text, and then you walk away from the door and sit down for a second, that would be one text and one view of the SUV, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So if you did that at 12:27, 12:31, 12:40, 12:42, and 12:45, you'd agree that's five times that you were up and down looking at the SUV, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if I did it five times.
MR. JACKSON: How many times do you think you did do it?
MS. MCCABE: I know I definitely did it the first — when I said "here." I know I definitely did it when I said "pull behind me," because that's when the vehicle had moved up a little bit.
MR. JACKSON: And then did you see the vehicle move up... again a second time?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, that's when I told him to pull behind me.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, so that's the first — so just so we're clear, when you first saw the SUV it was stationary, correct?
MS. MCCABE: When I first saw the vehicle it was straight ahead out the front door, stationary.
MR. JACKSON: And you texted "here," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Then you walked back over to the window — I'm sorry — to the door, to the storm door, and you said "pull behind me," correct, at 12:31?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: All right, at that point you saw that it had moved up a little bit, is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, so if you saw it move up a second time — which you just said you did — then that would be a third time that you had
MS. MCCABE: To have seen it and texted, correct?
MR. JACKSON: Why would that be a third time?
MS. MCCABE: Because it only moved once so far.
MR. JACKSON: You saw it move twice.
MS. MCCABE: So the first time I saw it, it was here, and I said "here," and then the next time I texted I said "pull behind me," so that was one time, two times.
MR. JACKSON: Keep going. You said you saw it pull up again a second time — so you saw it move twice — one place to the flagpole, then further up — so that's three times that you're up to the door. Okay, is that —
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I'm telling you my memory is twice to the door.
MR. JACKSON: It's not a trick question. You just testified that you saw the car move twice — by definition that has to be looked at it three times — stationary, move once, move twice.
PARENTHETICAL: [pause]
MS. MCCABE: Maybe I used the wrong wording.
MR. JACKSON: So when you testified in front of this other proceeding, didn't you testify that you walked up and sat back down five different times watching that car and texting every single time?
MS. MCCABE: Would you be able to show me that?
MR. JACKSON: It's going to take a minute. May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Take a look at those four pages — that's pages 780 to 784. Bates stamp. After you've had a chance to review that, just look up and let me know.
MR. JACKSON: Ma'am, you had an opportunity to review those few pages from your testimony in June of 2023?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you — you were asked about getting up and sitting down and looking at the SUV several different times and texting?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In fact, you indicated that you got up and — sorry — got up and looked outside through that storm door several times, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And as a matter of fact, you looked every single time that you texted — you indicated that you looked out at the SUV and saw something that prompted you to text something, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And then after the last time — which would be five times, five texts, five looks — after the last time you texted you got back up, which would be a sixth time, and the SUV was gone. Just chronologically correct?
MS. MCCABE: My husband and I were both getting up and looking.
MR. JACKSON: I didn't ask you about your husband. Just about you. The answer is correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So you're indicating that you're trying to communicate with the occupant of the SUV that was sitting — what would you say — 30 feet outside the front door?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not good with distance. It's further than you and I are from each other, correct?
MR. JACKSON: Correct. At least double that, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, so could you give me — maybe yards are easier — like 10 yards? 15 yards?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I'm not good with measurements.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Just right outside the front door —
MS. MCCABE: Straight outside.
MR. JACKSON: Yes, straight outside — straight out the front door is where it was, straight outside until it moved, according to you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And then it moved, correct?
MS. MCCABE: And it moved.
MR. JACKSON: The second time, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. It moved to the flagpole and then it moved up again.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Then you indicated that you had an absolutely clear view of the SUV — you were asked those questions, correct?
MS. MCCABE: If I had a clear view — clear view — I could see the car out front, yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked — you were looking out the front door of the house — your answer was "uh-huh." You were asked "and there's a window in that door?" Answer: it was opened. Question: "so you had a clear view outside?" Answer: "a clear view outside, yes." Remember that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And is that your memory — you had a clear view?
MS. MCCABE: I had a clear view of Karen's vehicle outside, correct.
MR. JACKSON: And then you reiterated that with the following exchange. Question: "was the amount of snow coming down sufficient to obstruct your view of the vehicle, or did you have a clear view of it?" Answer: "I had a good view of it."
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Objection. The objection is as to the form of the question and the reading.
JUDGE CANNONE: That's okay, I'm going to allow it.
MR. JACKSON: Was that your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So not only did you have a clear view, you indicated — in your words, not mine — you had a good view of it, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Then you noticed that the SUV was gone after the 12:45 text, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So you're looking at that SUV over the course of — between the beginning text and the end text — it's about 19 minutes, right? 12:27 or so to 12:45, 18, 19 minutes, something like that, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Maybe add a minute because you got back up and didn't text — the SUV was gone, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So you would agree — we just do some basic math — you're looking at that SUV on average about every three, three and a half minutes?
MS. MCCABE: I guess. If you want to pull out the times then you can look at them.
MR. JACKSON: Well, we talked about the times and you've agreed that you were texting between 12:27 and 12:45, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Right.
MR. JACKSON: So if you were just to divide that by five times getting up and looking — I don't know, doing the math in my head — maybe it's three minutes or so?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: At no time did you hear any noise or sound outside that was unusual, correct? You didn't hear any squealing of tires or squealing of brakes?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear any screaming or yelling?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear any loud voices or foul language or a door slam?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear any verbal argument or the revving of an engine, anything like that?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, you didn't hear any collision or crash, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, the entire time that you looked out at that vehicle — with that clear and that good view — you didn't see anything out of the ordinary, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And you would agree with me — as you looked at the SUV, you're looking over to the SUV out to the street, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: There was no obstruction between you and the SUV — you've already testified to that — is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you can see everything in your field of view, correct? And then you saw the SUV gone — it had driven away after 12:45, correct? So I have a question, ma'am — where was the body?
MS. MCCABE: I have no idea. I'm assuming the body was on the front lawn.
MR. JACKSON: The problem with that is you were looking —
MS. MCCABE: I was looking at the vehicle and where it had moved.
MR. JACKSON: You know what field of view is?
MS. MCCABE: Would you like to explain it?
MR. JACKSON: You had a clear and good view across that lawn to the SUV, didn't you — when it was straight out?
MS. MCCABE: I did, yes.
MR. JACKSON: You got a clear and good view of that SUV the entire time until it left, didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: I could see the black SUV, correct.
MR. JACKSON: Nothing was obstructing your vision —
MS. MCCABE: I wasn't looking at the ground.
MR. JACKSON: I didn't ask you about the ground yet. We'll get to the ground. Nothing was obstructing your vision, was it?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: So you had a clear and good — your words, not mine — a clear and good view of the SUV?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And everything in front of it?
MS. MCCABE: I never said everything in front of it. I saw the SUV — it's black, it has lights on, and as it moved I could see it with its lights.
MR. JACKSON: You had a clear view of everything between you and the SUV — all the things closer to you and the SUV?
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't say that.
MR. JACKSON: So your view was obstructed on what was between you and the SUV, but not obstructed on the SUV?
MS. MCCABE: That's not what I was saying.
MR. JACKSON: No, of course not. Because if you had a clear field of view to the SUV, you could see everything in front of it as well — meaning between you and the SUV.
MS. MCCABE: — as well. If I'm looking straight out at an SUV, I'm not looking down at the ground.
MR. JACKSON: Let me ask you a question about that. You're focusing right now on my face, yes, as you're answering these questions. You think you'd see — I don't know — an alligator sitting in front of me if it was there?
MS. MCCABE: Jackson, I think you would see something.
MR. JACKSON: Can you clearly see that there is nothing between you and me except the podium?
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar]
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Well, there's a table, and you don't have to look down to see that, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You're looking directly in my face, but you can see things that are between you and me because you have a field of vision, right?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I want to see counsel at sidebar for just a minute.
MR. JACKSON: May I proceed?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As you looked over that flat lawn with that good and clear view of the SUV, you could see the SUV and everything between you and the SUV, correct?
MS. MCCABE: When I looked out the front window, I could see that SUV clearly, like I'm looking at you right now. And it was further away than you are.
MR. JACKSON: And you did it not once, not twice, not three times — you did it five times, and then a sixth after it was gone, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And after that SUV was gone and you looked out that window with that clear and good view, there was no body, was there?
MS. MCCABE: I never saw her body. Thank you. I wish I —
MR. JACKSON: Sounds like that's a little rehearsed.
MS. MCCABE: Not at all. It's not at all.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll let the answer stand.
MR. JACKSON: You left the location about 1:45, is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see anything out of the ordinary as you got in — was it your car or Mr. McCabe's car?
MS. MCCABE: It was my car.
MR. JACKSON: When you got in that SUV of yours, you didn't see anything out of the ordinary outside, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I wasn't looking outside.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I know that is the answer that you want to give to every question. My question is yes or no — did you see anything out there?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. You didn't see anything out of the ordinary when you got in the vehicle?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see anything out of the ordinary when the vehicle backed up?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And that vehicle turned — I guess it would be to the right — to leave toward Chapman, and the headlights illuminated the area in front. You didn't see anything out of the ordinary?
MS. MCCABE: I wasn't looking out the front window.
MR. JACKSON: Again, there's that answer. My question is: did you see anything out of the ordinary?
MS. MCCABE: Well, you were asking about the headlights out the front — that's why I said I didn't see anything out there in front.
MR. JACKSON: Oh, you didn't see the headlights turn on?
MS. MCCABE: I was turned to the back.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Did you see that the headlights came on?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, in the driveway, the headlights came on.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And you're seated in the front passenger seat, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So according to you, you got in the car and immediately twisted yourself looking directly to the rear, and never turned back around and never looked outside the windows, correct? Got it. Is that normal for you?
MS. MCCABE: Um, yeah, I'm a very chatty person, so I turned to talk to the girls.
MR. JACKSON: So you made sure that you didn't look out the window?
MS. MCCABE: Nope, that's not it at all.
MR. JACKSON: You also didn't hear anybody — well, you did hear some of the girls in the back since they were so chatty, talking about bread and sandwiches or something, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: But you never heard anybody say anything about noticing anything out of the ordinary, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear Julie Nagel say that she saw a black object in the yard?
MS. MCCABE: Never heard that.
MR. JACKSON: But you were turned around, looking right out, according to you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Indeed, engaging them in conversation, according to you, correct? So that you could make sure that you weren't looking out the front or right windows?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, can you answer that?
MR. JACKSON: Is that why you did it?
MS. MCCABE: No, that's not why I did it. I was talking to the two girls.
MR. JACKSON: When you got home, what did you do?
MS. MCCABE: I went up to bed.
MR. JACKSON: What time do you think you got home?
MS. MCCABE: Somewhere — approximately between 2 and 2:15.
MR. JACKSON: Took you a few minutes to drop the girls off, correct? When you got home, you got on your phone, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Before you got on your phone, you —
MS. MCCABE: Went upstairs to my bedroom.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Did you use any applications — well, let me ask it this way first. Did you make any phone calls, just using your phone for phone calls, after you got home, either downstairs or upstairs?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe so.
MR. JACKSON: Did you use any applications to communicate with anybody through Wi-Fi? Do you know what I mean by that — like FaceTime Audio, or WhatsApp phone calls, things like that? Text message?
MS. MCCABE: No, actually.
MR. JACKSON: And you may not use these, but I'm asking — did you use any kind of third-party app that uses Wi-Fi, VoIP calls, other than just a phone call?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Sounds like you don't even know what that is.
MS. MCCABE: I don't even know what you're talking about.
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. So it's safe to say that you didn't use — or you don't use — any multimedia to communicate? You don't use FaceTime or Snapchat or Signal or anything like that?
MS. MCCABE: I've used FaceTime with my children, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Not for phone calls?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: FaceTime Audio is a way that you can make a call.
MS. MCCABE: No, I FaceTimed with my kids at school, but that's video.
MR. JACKSON: Oh, okay. So yeah, I guess not. You didn't do that that night either?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I recall.
MR. JACKSON: Now I'm going to get back to my question — did you text anybody?
MS. MCCABE: I did.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Who did you text?
MS. MCCABE: I texted my sisters, and I texted my husband and a friend in a group chat.
MR. JACKSON: You texted your husband and a friend in a group chat?
MS. MCCABE: That, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Your husband was home?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I want to switch gears for a second and ask you real quick about later that morning — when you went to John O.'s house. You mentioned on Friday that you went into his house and began to look around for him. When you first got there with Kerry Roberts and my client Karen Read, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that you looked in his bedroom and saw that the bed was made, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You also indicated that you looked around other parts of the house looking for him, searching for him, is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You obviously saw the blankets and pillows on the couch downstairs in the living room, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I peeked over at the couch.
MR. JACKSON: And you're aware that Karen Read stayed on the couch that night to wait for John to come home?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not aware of that, no.
MR. JACKSON: You testified on Friday that my client said at the scene — when you got back to the scene, 34 Fairview, just after 6:00 AM — that she said "I hit him three times," she declared it, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Not once, not twice — three times: "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him," correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You have a very specific memory of that event, do you not?
MS. MCCABE: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Obviously, that's an incredibly impactful thing for you to remember, is that right?
MS. MCCABE: It was an impactful statement. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you remember it today as well as you remembered it the day she did it?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I have just a moment? May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: This is just the entirety — I'm going to hand you a document. Did you — before I ask you about that specific document — did you review anything before you testified, in preparation for your testimony today or Friday?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you review your grand jury testimony?
MS. MCCABE: I did.
MR. JACKSON: Yes, understood. You did review your grand jury testimony, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So the document in front of you — you recognize it?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That is in fact a true and correct copy of your grand jury testimony that you gave on April 26th, 2022, is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You'll agree that your testimony in — in that hearing, rather — April of 2022, that was just a few months after the events in question, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were under oath at the time that you gave that testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you were subject to the penalty of perjury when answering those questions, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'd like you to turn to the page — since you reviewed this — turn to the page of that document where you ever said in your testimony that my client said "I hit him, I hit him—"
MS. MCCABE: I was — I asked what she said. I ask questions.
MR. JACKSON: Well, I'd like you to direct me where to look. I want you to look at the entire grand jury testimony, if you need to, and turn to the page where you ever said that my client said "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him."
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if it's in this document, but I can tell you — Today, with 100% clarity, she said "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him" on that morning.
MR. JACKSON: So it's not in that document, is it?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure. If I could take the time — do you want me to read over 200 pages?
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: No, I don't want to take the time, because you just indicated that you reviewed this document in anticipation of your testimony, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So you've gone over it recently — few weeks back. So we don't need to read it. You know that you never testified to that in the grand jury in April of 2022, don't you?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know that as a fact. I would have to reread 222 pages, or however long it is.
MR. JACKSON: You think you might have missed it when... ...you reviewed your testimony in anticipation — I'm sorry, when you reviewed your transcript in anticipation for your testimony?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
MS. MCCABE: I read it. I read it a few weeks ago.
MR. JACKSON: It's probably the most powerful part of your testimony, ma'am, and I will never forget it.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay, so that's stricken.
MR. JACKSON: Would you agree? Do you think that's a powerful part of your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, it is. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you see it in the transcript?
MS. MCCABE: I cannot recall. It's over 200 pages.
MR. JACKSON: Approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: These are select pages — 191, 192, 193. I'm just going to show these. These are select pages out of your grand jury testimony. Isn't it true, ma'am, that you were asked when you testified no fewer... ...than 12 times what my client said, either at the scene or on the way to the scene?
MS. MCCABE: At the scene, I was asked twice, according to this.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that in April of 2022 you testified no fewer than 12 times — 12 separate statements you gave about what my client's statements were — either at the scene or in the car ride leading up to going to the scene? You remember that?
MS. MCCABE: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So on page 190 of what you're looking at — these should all be highlighted — you testified that my client said to you over the phone at 4:53 a.m., she asked the question "did I hit him." You see that?
MS. MCCABE: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Number two — on page 192, talking about when y'all were in the car on the way to the scene, Karen asked the question "could I have hit him." You see that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Page 193, lines 1 through 2, you testified that in the car, once again, she asked the question "could she have hit him" — you were relaying that, meaning "could I have hit him." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Page 193, line 23 — in John's driveway, she asked the question, and she is asking if she could have hit him.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Page 201 — driving to Fairview, she asked the question "what if I hit him" and "could I have hit him." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Page 202, lines 1 through 2 — while driving to Fairview, she asked the question "could I have hit him." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Page 208, lines 24 through 25 — outside at... ...Fairview, she asked the question "did I hit him" and went on to ask "could I have hit him." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And your testimony was also on page 208 that Karen was yelling nonstop in front of the female EMT — "did I hit him, could I have hit him, is he dead." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That's 12 times that you reiterated under oath, under penalty of perjury, in April of 2022, what my client's statements were — either at the scene or leading up to getting to the scene. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Every single one of those 12 separate times, you indicated that she asked a question — something like "could I have hit him" or "did I hit him."
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Not one time in that testimony did you say she declared "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him," did you?
MS. MCCABE: The questions that were asked — when she said "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him," that was at the scene, in response to an officer asking questions. What I just read was when she first called me, or when we were driving in the car, or when we were at John's house. So I was answering the question that I was asked.
MR. JACKSON: So you believe that you weren't asked the question "did she say to an officer 'I hit him, I hit him, I hit him'"? And if you're not asked the question "did she say to an officer 'I hit him, I hit him, I hit him,'" you're not going to volunteer... ...that she said "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him"? That's your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: No, that's not my testimony. An officer was asking her what his name was and different things about him, and at that point she was saying "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him."
MR. JACKSON: Which officer?
MS. MCCABE: I do not recall.
MR. JACKSON: Well, you called it the most impactful thing of the morning — it was shocking. So what officer did she say this to, supposedly?
MS. MCCABE: I was more focused on her and her hysteria than which officer was asking the question.
MR. JACKSON: So you have no idea who the officer was — even correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure which officer was asking her. It could... ...have been an EMT. Someone said "what is his name, does he have medical conditions, how old is he."
MR. JACKSON: But you were asked that question, ma'am — on page 28, you were asked what she said in front of the female EMT who was asking her questions, and — I'm sorry — your answer was she said "did I hit him, could I have hit him, is he dead." Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: That is correct.
MR. JACKSON: That might have been a good time to offer up that she confessed "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him," right?
MR. LALLY: Objection as to that form.
MR. JACKSON: Ma'am, the truth of the matter is you've manufactured this new story for this jury because you think it helps you out.
MS. MCCABE: Absolutely not.
MR. JACKSON: You called 911 at 6:04 a.m. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, with the court's permission, Exhibit 36 has already been marked in evidence. I would ask to play a portion of that 911 tape — not the entirety of it.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: With the court's permission, I'd ask to play about runtime 1:30 to 1:45. Do you recognize the voice on that tape?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, that's mine.
MR. JACKSON: Does it appear to be a true and accurate — at least that portion — a true and accurate recording of the 911 call that you made that morning?
MS. MCCABE: It was a very brief clip. I'd have to hear more.
MR. JACKSON: Go ahead and play, starting at runtime 1:30 to about 1:45. [911 CALL AUDIO]: "...46 years old... 46... I don't know... I don't know..." Was that you?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, that was.
MR. JACKSON: Is that the 911 call?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it was.
MR. JACKSON: And what did you just say?
MS. MCCABE: I said "I don't know... he got out of the car."
MR. JACKSON: "He got out of the car" — is that what you said?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And this was at 6:03 in the morning. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: This is before you ever talked to Brian Albert. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Before you ever talked to your sister Nicole Albert. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Before you ever talked to Chris Albert. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Or ever talked to Julie Albert. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You haven't talked to anybody at this point other than Curt Roberts — correct — and Karen Read, in your car. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And in that 911 call, you said "he got out of the car," didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: I did, because Karen Read had told me that she had left him there.
MR. JACKSON: Your words were "he got out of the car." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Did you make any other calls other than to 911?
MS. MCCABE: I called my sister.
MR. JACKSON: What time was that?
MS. MCCABE: I believe it was after the 911, but I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: You claim that your sister didn't answer. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: She did not answer.
MR. JACKSON: But you do know that your phone extraction shows that that was an answered call at 6:07?
MS. MCCABE: If that's what it shows, but I can tell you she did not answer the phone.
MR. JACKSON: And you are sure about that?
MS. MCCABE: I certainly am.
MR. JACKSON: Perfect. You also called her at 6:08.
MS. MCCABE: I might have called her twice.
MR. JACKSON: You want an exhibit? This may be as good a time as any — need to take a break if you wish. I just have to cue it up.
JUDGE CANNONE: It's up to you.
MR. JACKSON: I don't mind.
JUDGE CANNONE: Folks, we'll take our morning break. Please be seated. So, Mr. Jackson, when you said it's in — is it in evidence?
MR. JACKSON: It's not — to ask to mark it. It's a digital recording of a 4-minute voicemail on John O'Keefe's phone. It does include the 911 call. I don't want to play the entirety of the 911 call, but I do want to play the entirety of this particular 4-minute voicemail.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Do you know what it is, Mr. Lally?
MR. LALLY: I do.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. So is there an agreement that it's coming in?
MR. LALLY: There's no objection to it.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. All right. I just needed to know — it would make sense for me to review it if there was an objection.
COURT OFFICER: All rise for the court, please. Please be seated.
JUDGE CANNONE: So, Mr. Jackson, is it all queued up, or do we need the —
MR. JACKSON: Well, we need the witness.
JUDGE CANNONE: But were there any questions? First, or are we just going to the video questions? Okay, let's bring Miss McCabe in. Okay, whenever you're ready, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your Honor. I want to go back very briefly to something you said just before we broke, and that was in respect of the statements that you attribute to my client at the scene. You said, well, there was an officer possibly asking questions, or it could have been a female EMT, and "I wasn't answering questions about that" — correct — hence you didn't say "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him."
MS. MCCABE: Can you be clear on your question?
MR. JACKSON: Let me rephrase that. Before we broke a few minutes ago, you had said, "The reason I didn't say 'I hit him, I hit him, I hit him' is because I was never asked," and the subject never came up about what an officer asked her when she declared that, so "I just didn't offer it." And then you said, "Or it could have been an EMT."
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'm unclear — who was there? Isn't it true that at the Grand Jury, the question that was posed to you — and this is counsel's page 208 — the question that was posed to you is, quote: "So, where does — what happens next, with yourself, Miss Roberts, and Miss Read?" And your answer was: "So there are different, you know, police officers getting statements from us. At one point I'm standing with Miss Read and she's saying, 'Did I hit him, could I have hit him,' and there was, I believe, an EMT, a female, standing right next to me, listening to her yelling, 'Did I hit him, could I have hit him, is he dead, is he dead, is he dead?'" — was pretty much nonstop. Remember that testimony?
MS. MCCABE: I do.
MR. JACKSON: So in point of fact, you were answering the direct question about what happened in front of the police officer and the EMT — correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. There were multiple police officers and multiple EMTs present.
PARENTHETICAL: [audio plays] [audio plays]
MR. JACKSON: I've paused the audio tape just to ask you a couple of foundational questions. Do you recognize what's on that audio tape?
MR. JACKSON: So now this is another police officer and a different EMT?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not saying that.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But nowhere in this did you say she declared the words "I —"
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Your Honor, I have an item that I would like to have marked as next in order.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Yes. [unintelligible] — that will be 96.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. With the court's permission, I would like to play a portion of this and then stop it, okay? A couple of questions about it.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. That is my voice.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You recognize you starting a 911 call, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Similar to the call we just listened to a few minutes ago, which was the actual 911 call — correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. What's the difference between the two of them?
MR. JACKSON: I'm about to explain it. It's a confusing question. I apologize. This appears to be an open voicemail overhearing your 911 call.
MS. MCCABE: You recognize that now that you explain it, okay.
MR. JACKSON: You hear a rhythmic boom boom boom boom — the windshield wipers — okay? So that would have been — that was my next question — that would have been an open voicemail that was recorded inside the cab of the SUV that you were seated in, correct?
PARENTHETICAL: [audio plays]
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Overhearing you call 911 and overhearing whatever else was going on — ambient noise at the scene — correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
PARENTHETICAL: [audio plays]
MS. MCCABE: audio — fragment: "car" audio — fragment audio — fragment
MR. JACKSON: Does that sound like a true and correct copy of at least the portion of the 911 call that you heard?
MS. MCCABE: I have to listen to it again, but —
MR. JACKSON: Well, why don't we continue listening to it and see if you recognize it, okay? With your permission?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: It's about four minutes in total, Your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Pause it. Do you hear a person in the background screaming?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Who is that?
MS. MCCABE: Miss Read. [unintelligible]
MR. JACKSON: Did you hear the audio recording that we just marked into evidence?
MS. MCCABE: I did. It was very muffled and some parts were very hard to understand.
MR. JACKSON: Understood. The person on the phone — who was that person?
MS. MCCABE: I called 911.
MR. JACKSON: And the person that was — for the most part — the person's voice that you could hear screaming, sounding hysterical — who was that?
MS. MCCABE: Karen.
MR. JACKSON: Could you also hear Kerry Roberts' voice at various times in the background?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And she was, for lack of a better word, trying to calm Karen down?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At some point telling — "just shut up, you're not healthy"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Exactly. Because she was so hysterical and so upset — erratic.
MR. JACKSON: I want to play the rest of this. It appears that this recording is longer than your 911 call. You would agree with that?
MS. MCCABE: Well, I'd have to see — well, the 911 call has already ended, correct?
MR. JACKSON: I'm not sure. How long was the 911 call?
MS. MCCABE: Okay. This is about three and a half minutes into a four-minute recording.
MR. JACKSON: My only question is: would you agree that the 911 call is subsumed within this full recording?
MS. MCCABE: I couldn't make that from — that muffled —
MR. JACKSON: You couldn't tell?
MS. MCCABE: I couldn't tell. So if you have my phone record, you could — I'm assuming — tell when the 911 call ended. Because I know the 911 call was long because they had transferred me multiple times. Right. My —
MR. JACKSON: My question to you is, I'd like you to listen very, very closely. And I know that it is a muffled recording by definition. Do that. Um, from this point forward, I want you to pay very close attention. I want to ask you if you hear a voice — very muffled — in this recording.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you hear a muffled voice in the foreground after you heard this [unintelligible], ma'am?
MS. MCCABE: I heard two people talking.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. One of those was a very muffled voice on this recording. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Most of the recording was muffled.
MR. JACKSON: The one I'm talking about — I just played the voice that was muffled in the foreground of the audio recording. Better phrase. Yes. You just —
MS. MCCABE: I heard that. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Was that you?
MS. MCCABE: I don't — I'm going — I don't know if that was me.
MR. JACKSON: There was nobody else in the cab — the car — with you, was there?
MS. MCCABE: I was standing at the trunk of the car, outside of the car.
MR. JACKSON: Roberts was over by — agree?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. They were kind of running back and forth at times, and [unintelligible] was over by [unintelligible] most of that. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: But you were the one by the car, back and forth?
MS. MCCABE: Mm-hmm.
MR. JACKSON: You called Nicole, your sister. Uh, by the way —
JUDGE CANNONE: Have we finished playing this? Just for — um —
MR. JACKSON: Okay, thank you. Okay. That appears to be the end of the tape. Okay. Okay. Uh, you called your sister at 6:07 and 42 seconds. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't have my phone record in front of me. Does that sound about right? Approximately.
MR. JACKSON: And you made a second phone call at 6:08 and 17 seconds. Does that sound about right?
MS. MCCABE: I did call her twice. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And both of those calls show in your extraction that they were answered phone calls. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't have my extraction in front of me.
MR. JACKSON: Well, you've been asked this question a bunch of times, right? You were asked this question at the other proceeding. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were shown phone records.
MS. MCCABE: Well, if you have them, I could see them here.
MR. JACKSON: You were shown phone records then?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And at that time you were confronted with the fact that the phone records show a 7-second call for 6:07 —
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to strike the word "confronted." Go ahead and ask — go ahead and ask the question.
MR. JACKSON: Shown evidence that the 6:07 call lasted 7 seconds.
MS. MCCABE: My sister never answered the phone.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I know you want to answer your own questions. Yeah. I'd like — if you'd answer my question — were you shown records that show the call lasted 7 seconds?
MS. MCCABE: I cannot recall the exact record I was shown, but I was shown a phone record.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you were shown the same phone record — showed that the 6:08 call lasted 8 seconds, right?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I don't have it in front of me.
MR. JACKSON: That sound about right?
MS. MCCABE: About right.
MR. JACKSON: And there were a number of other calls that showed answered that weren't answered. We'll get to those in a minute. So the two calls at 6:07 and 6:08 — at least the records indicate about 15 seconds worth of open line time, talk time — 7 seconds, 8 seconds, right? You have the record in front of you?
MS. MCCABE: I don't.
MR. JACKSON: I'm just asking — if you were — that word again — if you were shown records that established that, based on your own phone extraction, your phone records, that the 6:07 call was a 7-second call, 6:08 call was an 8-second call. Right?
MS. MCCABE: I was shown records, but I don't know exactly what they were — how long the call said — because she never answered the phone.
MR. JACKSON: Regardless, you also made another phone call at 6:23, did you not, to Brian Albert?
MS. MCCABE: If you could share my phone record, it would be very helpful.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recall it?
MS. MCCABE: I know I called my sister and I called my brother-in-law in the house. I do not know the exact times.
MR. JACKSON: You made a phone call to Brian Albert as well, right?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so.
MR. JACKSON: That was around 6:23 — it was a few minutes after you had called Nicole twice, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that call was not answered?
MS. MCCABE: None of them were answered.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But the record showed that that call was not answered, as opposed to Nicole's two calls. Right?
MS. MCCABE: Right.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Um, the calls to Nicole were deleted from your phone before you turned that phone into law enforcement.
MS. MCCABE: Not by me. By somebody else. I never deleted any calls. When I willingly handed my phone over —
MR. JACKSON: You claim that you didn't delete calls, but you do know that your phone was forensically analyzed and those calls were in the deleted file folder. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I have seen that. But there were 20 calls, all in a group, that were all deleted. So cherry-picking a few makes it look a different way.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, so we'll get to those. I'm not cherry-picking anything. Okay — asking questions about the records,
MS. MCCABE: Which I would love a copy of, if I could see —
MR. JACKSON: We'll get to that in a second. Going by your memory — you've seen these records a bunch of times, you've been questioned about these records a bunch of times. Right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So we know that you called at 6:07, 6:08 or thereabouts, and about 6:23 — two to Nicole, one to Brian. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you'll agree with me that, notwithstanding those phone calls — by the way, did you leave voicemails?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: When did you hang up — before it went to voicemail, or was it into voicemail before you hung up?
MS. MCCABE: So it was a bit of a hysterical scene that morning and I was in a state of shock and I was just calling my sister and my brother-in-law. They did not answer the phone. I cannot tell you when I hung up because it was a hysterical scene. I was in a state of shock. Everyone was running around. And what seems to be forgotten is that my friend was lying there on the ground.
MR. JACKSON: I don't think anybody's forgotten that. Um, you in fact did not leave voicemails for any of those three calls, did you?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I don't have my phone record in front of me.
MR. JACKSON: That's because Nicole didn't get any voicemails — because the calls were answered, right?
MS. MCCABE: The calls were not answered.
MR. JACKSON: You do agree with me that Brian and Nicole Albert — Brian Albert being a police officer — never came out of the house, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Neither did any neighbor. I know you'd like to continue editorializing. After the fact, there's probably a time and a place for it. This isn't it. If you can answer my question, I'd ask that you do that. Did Brian Albert come out of the house?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did Nicole Albert come out of the house?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. How many of the initial police officers from Canton Police Department who responded to the scene were you friends with?
MS. MCCABE: I was — I would say I am friendly with Mike Lank. He was a few — five years older than me. I knew him. I knew him growing up. If I saw him around town, I would say, hey, how are you? Pretty much, that's the extent.
MR. JACKSON: Anybody else other than Mike Lank that you're friends with?
MS. MCCABE: Um, not that I am friends with. I knew of Officer Sean Goode, but I wouldn't say I was friends with him. I just knew who he was.
MR. JACKSON: And you also knew that Officer Lank was very good friends with the Albert family?
MS. MCCABE: Good friends. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Um, you knew that Mike Lank and Chris Albert had a long-time, longstanding friendship. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, you just indicated you also knew Officer Goode. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Didn't know him. I said I knew of him.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Uh, with regard to [unintelligible] — not so much — Saraf?
MS. MCCABE: Saraf has a sister that's the same age as my sister, but I had never to my knowledge met Saraf.
MR. JACKSON: And of all the officers who responded to the scene, the two who actually went inside the Albert home to talk to Brian Albert and others was in fact Mike Lank and Officer Goode?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember Officer Goode in the house. I only remember Officer Lank.
MR. JACKSON: The reason you know — the reason you have a memory of what was happening inside the house is because you were allowed to actually go into that home. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you went into that home before any of the officers went into the home. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You were allowed to have private conversations with Brian Albert.
MS. MCCABE: I woke Brian Albert up.
MR. JACKSON: Were you allowed to have private conversations with Brian Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you were allowed to have private conversations with your sister Nicole?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was before the police ever went in to do any formal interviews of you, Brian, [unintelligible].
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss in these private conversations how you three were going to answer any questions for the police when you were asked?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you talk about what you were going to say in any respect?
MS. MCCABE: We were in shock. There was no — no.
MR. JACKSON: Did you talk about what Brian and Nicole were going to say in their interviews with the police?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did — did Brian Albert give you any advice as a police detective — what you should do or say when you were interviewed?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did he give you any advice as a police detective — what you should do with your cell phone?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, did — did he tell you that the police might want to get a hold of your cell phone at some point. Now, did you two discuss the calls that you made to Nicole Albert at 6:07 and 6:08, and the call that you made to Brian Albert at 6:23?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ever discuss the idea of potentially deleting any of those calls that were made that early morning?
MS. MCCABE: Absolutely not.
MR. JACKSON: Would you tell us if you did?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, because I'm an honest and truthful person.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell him which officers were outside?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell him that Officer Lank specifically — that the Alberts were outside?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: And then your husband Matt McCabe arrived at the scene, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: He was allowed to come in the house as well, right?
MS. MCCABE: I believe Officer Lank was in the house before Matt came into the house.
MR. JACKSON: And a little bit later that morning, Julie Albert came over, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: By the way, Officer Lank — after just a few minutes — left the house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Leaving all the witnesses inside together, correct? And — I can't remember if I asked this question, I just thought it out loud — did Julie Albert come over?
MS. MCCABE: She did.
MR. JACKSON: And then Chris came over?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Even Brian Higgins came over, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: These are all friends and family of yours, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Not Brian Higgins — I had only met him a handful of times.
MR. JACKSON: But you consider him a friend?
MS. MCCABE: A friend of Brian Albert's is how I would reference him.
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. So these are friends and family of Brian Albert, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Um —
MR. JACKSON: And everyone was permitted to discuss the circumstances of the evening — going into the early morning hours — with each other, with no police there, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I sat with my family in shock and horror.
MR. JACKSON: Were you allowed to discuss the circumstances of the night — before going into the early morning hours — amongst yourselves, without any police presence? Yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: There was no reason for us to be allowed or not allowed. We did nothing wrong.
MR. JACKSON: Understand my question? Did you get it?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I understand your question.
MR. JACKSON: Can you answer it yes or no? Were you allowed — that group of folks — were you allowed to discuss the case without a police presence?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So you listened — during that friends and family gathering — you listened to what Brian Albert had to say, correct?
MS. MCCABE: He didn't really say much.
MR. JACKSON: He was able to listen to what you had to say?
MS. MCCABE: Again, you're creating a scene that didn't happen.
MR. JACKSON: I'm asking some questions. You don't seem to want to answer.
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson. All right, so let's ask a question and let's get an answer.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Yes or no: with Brian Albert there within earshot, did you discuss your version of what had happened?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't discuss much. I sat there in shock and horror, so I spoke very little, to be honest with you.
MR. JACKSON: You did speak — he could hear?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Nicole could hear?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Chris Albert could hear?
MS. MCCABE: Chris came much later.
MR. JACKSON: And your husband Matt McCabe — he could hear?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And then when Chris is talking about what happened at Waterfall, you could hear, and Brian could hear. In other words, everybody could hear everybody.
MS. MCCABE: Chris came much later. When Chris came, I was almost about to leave.
MR. JACKSON: I'm guessing that the topic of what had happened was still on everybody's mind — everybody was trying to figure out what had happened — and you're discussing it amongst yourselves. That's my point.
MS. MCCABE: With my sister and my brother-in-law and my husband.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Before you left — you said you were about to leave — before you left, another Albert came over to the house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall seeing him.
MR. JACKSON: Kevin Albert.
MS. MCCABE: How'd you know I was talking about Kevin Albert?
MR. JACKSON: Because you said another Albert came over. And — there are six brothers.
MS. MCCABE: I was told later it was Kevin.
MR. JACKSON: I see. So you believe that Kevin was not there when you were still there?
MS. MCCABE: I was in a state of shock. He may have walked in.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember it. No. He could have — he could have been, absolutely.
MR. JACKSON: And you knew he was a Canton police officer?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You had already gotten a call from Michael Proctor, hadn't you?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Told you he wanted to speak with you, correct? So you knew at that point that the Massachusetts State Police Troopers had taken over the investigation of the case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Did Michael Proctor tell you that the Canton Police Department had been recused from the case?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Let me ask it a different way. Did you have knowledge in any way, shape or fashion, at that point, that the Canton Police Department was not supposed to be involved?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Speaking of Trooper Proctor — when you first interviewed with him, that was January 29th, 2022. We've already discussed that a little bit today, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And he was taking notes while you were interviewing with him. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so.
MR. JACKSON: You mentioned on Friday your observations of the tail light that day. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You told Mr. Lally that you indicated that the tail light looked — when you saw it — just like the photograph that he showed you, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I told him it was hard to make out with the snow on it, but it looked —
MR. JACKSON: And the picture that he showed you — he showed you a second photo, a closeup basically of the SUV. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you said yeah, that's the condition of the tail light, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You also told — officer — I'm sorry — Trooper Proctor about your observations of the tail light on that same day, the 29th. Right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That's literally the same day that you saw the tail light, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Just a few hours later. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And what you told Trooper Proctor that day was that you quote "saw a crack in it," correct?
MS. MCCABE: I told him that the tail light was cracked.
MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, the words that you used were that you saw — and I'm not fighting on those words — you saw that it was cracked. You actually said, "I saw a crack in it."
MS. MCCABE: That's what he said. I'm telling you, I said the tail light was cracked.
MR. JACKSON: This is another example of him screwing up your words, correct?
MS. MCCABE: You'd have to ask Trooper Proctor.
MR. JACKSON: So I'm asking you: did you say "I saw a crack in it"?
MS. MCCABE: I said the tail light was cracked.
MR. JACKSON: So you didn't say "I saw a crack in it," right?
MS. MCCABE: I said the tail light was cracked.
MR. JACKSON: The photograph that you were shown — with the Court's permission, it's Exhibit 92, I believe, from Friday.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You see that photograph? You were shown this photograph on Friday. Does that look like it has a crack in it?
MS. MCCABE: It's cracked. Yes. It's actually completely missing. And I believe in one of the reports — one of the many reports — it will say that I said it was cracked and missing pieces.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Does that look like it's in pieces, or does that look like the entirety of the tail light is basically gone?
MS. MCCABE: Again, in that picture there are red pieces — there are some of it still there. So it's cracked and missing.
MR. JACKSON: In a state of shock. That was your description?
MS. MCCABE: Got it.
MR. JACKSON: So in a state of shock you said there was a crack in it?
MS. MCCABE: No. Hours after, I said it was cracked. I never said there was a crack in it.
MR. JACKSON: So if Trooper Proctor wrote that down, that would be an example of him getting your words wrong yet again?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, that's been answered. Let's move along.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your Honor. Okay. I want to get back to January 29th — that interview with Trooper Proctor. After this interview with Michael Lank, you eventually made your way back to your house. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You went with your husband Matt?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you knew that Trooper Proctor was going to show up and interview you and Matt, Mr. McCabe, correct?
MS. MCCABE: On the phone, he asked — he wanted to speak with me. So I wasn't aware — he asked to speak with me, I wasn't aware if he was going to speak with Matt.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You were at least aware that you were going to be interviewed, correct? You told Brian Albert that Trooper Proctor was planning on interviewing you as well, correct? Before Trooper Proctor showed up to conduct that interview at your house, Brian Albert actually showed up at your house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Brian Albert was in your home before Trooper Proctor was in your home. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I am not sure who arrived first, but he was there.
MR. JACKSON: When you were interviewed, wasn't he? He was upstairs.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you believe, of course, with that statement, he didn't hear anything about what was going on?
MS. MCCABE: No, I don't think he could hear it from where he was.
MR. JACKSON: But you knew he was just a few feet away?
MS. MCCABE: I knew he was up in my bedroom.
MR. JACKSON: We've talked a little bit about your call records, and I want to pivot for a second and ask you about those call records. This is Exhibit 90. I approach.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Do you recognize that document?
MS. MCCABE: I do. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were shown this document last week. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: This is a forensic extraction report of John O'Keefe's cell phone that you were shown on Friday, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You acknowledge that it's an accurate report of calls found on John's phone between you and him. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And this shows calls that you made to John's phone, or received from John's phone, between 12:14 a.m. and 12:50 a.m. I want to direct your attention to those time frames, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: All right. I want to start at the bottom, and it may go in reverse.
MS. MCCABE: Chronological order, okay. I think it does.
MR. JACKSON: At 12:14, it shows that you called John O'Keefe and that call was answered, is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, correct.
MR. JACKSON: At 12:18 a.m., it shows that John O'Keefe called your phone and that was answered as well.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And then at 12:29 a.m., you also called John O'Keefe's phone and y'all had a short conversation as well, is that right?
MS. MCCABE: No. The record shows — I think it shows — pardon me — unknown, correct, in terms of whether it was missed or answered.
MR. JACKSON: Excuse me, can you repeat that?
MS. MCCABE: Sure. The 12:29 — I want to concentrate on the 12:29 a.m. call. That one, in the Cellebrite extraction, it shows, in terms of whether the call was answered or not, the status is unknown, correct? It's on the last page, yeah. Second row from the top. At 12:29 — unknown. Yes, unknown.
MR. JACKSON: However, you've already acknowledged that y'all did have a short conversation on that 12:29 call, correct?
MS. MCCABE: We didn't speak at 12:29. We spoke at 12:14 and we spoke at 12:18. We never spoke at 12:29.
MR. JACKSON: So you're indicating that the 12:29 call was either missed or otherwise went to voicemail, something to that effect?
MS. MCCABE: 12:29, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I want to show you a document — well, let me ask it this way. According to this, there were six more calls between your phone and John O'Keefe's phone, correct?
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar]
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, just for ease of reference, may I approach and handle an unredacted version?
MS. MCCABE: Count — correct. One, two, three... five, six.
MR. JACKSON: And that's up to 12:50 a.m., is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: All right. I'd like to show you another document, or if I could approach briefly. May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. I'll take — so we don't get mixed up, I'll take — okay. Thank you. I want to show you one more document that you weren't shown on Friday. Do you recognize this one?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. If you look where it indicates on the left column — I'm just putting my thumb here — the column, the MSISDN user. There's a number that ends in 0142. Sorry, 0142. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Answer this question before —
JUDGE CANNONE: I have no idea what this is about. This document — yes, why don't we just go up there.
MR. JACKSON: Sure.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
JUDGE CANNONE: You're welcome.
MR. JACKSON: If you look on the left column, Miss McCabe —
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: — you'll see something that says Apple ID.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Look to the right of it. Do you recognize that unredacted portion? I don't want you to read it out or anything. You recognize that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Whose Apple ID is that?
MS. MCCABE: That's mine.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. If you look six lines below that, there's a full phone number. Again, don't read the phone number out — tell me if you recognize it.
MS. MCCABE: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Whose is that?
MS. MCCABE: That's mine.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. May I —
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'll take the unredacted copy back. Okay. So — does this appear to be a Cellebrite extraction of your phone records — your Apple ID?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you recognize — without telling me what it is — you recognize that phone number as your phone number at the time and the Apple ID at the time?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, associated with the phone that I then turned in to law enforcement.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Okay. You've just looked at the extraction report for John O'Keefe's phone and you saw those calls between your phone and John O'Keefe's phone, from 12:14 all the way up to 12:50, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look at the last couple of pages — page three and four of your own cell phone extraction report — and tell me if you see a single call listed between you and John O'Keefe for January 29th between 12:14 and 12:50.
MS. MCCABE: There are calls to a number that I'm assuming is John. I'm just not sure. I see a call...
MR. JACKSON: Wait a minute — this report has times everywhere, right? It's chronological.
MS. MCCABE: Except for the calls that were deleted.
MR. JACKSON: You see a call at 5:52 to John O'Keefe's phone?
MS. MCCABE: I see a call at 5:52, yes.
MR. JACKSON: But there is not a single call before 5:52 a.m. — between 12:14 and 12:50 a.m. — is that right? Not one?
MS. MCCABE: It's very hard to — this report jumps time-wise. You can look at every single time on the report — about that many. I'm just trying to say that it goes from 7:21 to 5:52 to 7:33 to 7:49. There's no — they're out of order.
MR. JACKSON: I understand that. But if you look at every one of the entries, not a single entry for 12:14, 12:18, or 12:29, or any of the subsequent phone calls that are all shown on John O'Keefe's extraction — would you agree with that?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. I would move for the admission as an exhibit.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Is there an objection?
MR. LALLY: No.
JUDGE CANNONE: You may.
MR. JACKSON: May I inquire?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The fact of the matter is, according to those Cellebrite records and that extraction from your own phone, every one of the calls that you made to John O'Keefe's phone — between — 12:29 — and I'm sorry, between 12:14 and 12:50 a.m. — was deleted and unrecovered, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't understand that report, and I'm not an expert.
MR. JACKSON: Compare the two. You saw a bunch of calls on John O'Keefe's phone, right? You know he couldn't have deleted them — he passed away, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You saw your cell phone extraction — which corresponds to John's phone — all of your calls are missing, right?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Can you — can you answer that question?
MS. MCCABE: I'm confused. That paper — I don't understand it. It was vague. There were numbers, there were calls everywhere. There was a number of missing calls.
MR. JACKSON: There's a bunch of missing calls, right? You didn't see any of the calls that were reflected on O'Keefe's phone, is that right? Yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: They're not there. A lot of calls are missing. I'm not really even sure what's there because the numbers are all — it's all redacted.
MR. JACKSON: So — you were not seeing any redacted calls?
MS. MCCABE: The page you just had in front of me was redacted.
MR. JACKSON: It's now an exhibit. Your personal information was redacted — no calls are redacted now.
MS. MCCABE: The numbers — I don't know people's phone numbers, I just have them as contacts.
MR. JACKSON: Ma'am — you just said a second ago — I — we do this all day long, or we just make it simple. The fact of the matter is, that report did not show any of the calls that John O'Keefe's phone report showed.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: From 12:14 to 12:50.
MS. MCCABE: I believe there was one on there — 5:52.
MR. JACKSON: That's the next morning, ma'am, right? Were there other calls in that time period on the Cellebrite? You just said there weren't — you just looked at them.
MS. MCCABE: I've told you that that Cellebrite report was extremely hard to read.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Fact is, there are no calls on your own phone extraction between you and John O'Keefe between 12:14 and 12:50. Would you just agree with that?
MS. MCCABE: At least on that report. judge cannone: sustained.
MR. JACKSON: The fact is that you deleted your call record before you turned your phone in, didn't you, Miss McCabe? That's what that report shows.
MS. MCCABE: Absolutely not.
MR. JACKSON: You sanitized your phone because you didn't want the police to know who you had been calling, or the fact that you had been calling John O'Keefe's phone incessantly, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Incorrect. I willingly turned over my phone.
MR. JACKSON: After you deleted your phone call logs, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Absolutely not.
MR. JACKSON: What date did you turn your phone over?
MS. MCCABE: Possibly February 3rd.
MR. JACKSON: How many days after this incident was that?
MS. MCCABE: Four? Five?
MR. JACKSON: So you had plenty of time to talk to that friends and family group and ultimately decide to delete your phone calls, correct? judge cannone: sustained. Did you ever have any group chats with family members who are witnesses in this case?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Let's go through those — well, Mr. Lally is looking through that packet. Can I just ask — to make sure the record is clear — did you delete any of your calls before you turned your phone in to law enforcement?
MS. MCCABE: I spoke with the two officers that I handed my phone over to, and I asked if I could delete the personal conversations with my daughters, and they said absolutely yes, that I could.
MR. JACKSON: So other than calls with your daughters that you deleted, did you delete any other calls on your phone at all?
MS. MCCABE: There were text messages — it was actually text messages with my daughters that I deleted, and that was all I deleted.
MR. JACKSON: Did you delete any phone calls?
MS. MCCABE: I do not recall deleting any phone calls at all. I would have no reason to delete anything.
MR. JACKSON: That's very different from "I didn't delete any phone calls." "I do not remember deleting phone calls" means you might have.
MS. MCCABE: In day-to-day life, people delete things, but I do not recall deleting any phone calls.
MR. JACKSON: In day-to-day life, did you delete any of the calls to John O'Keefe?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you delete any of your calls with Nicole Albert?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you delete any of your calls with Brian Albert?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: With Chris Albert?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: With Julie Albert?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Colin Albert?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: With any of the witnesses in this case, did you delete any calls before you turned that phone over?
MS. MCCABE: No. No.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, I'm handing you a packet of documents — appears to be about 10 pages long. Do you recognize what's in those documents?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated already that you were part of a group chat with certain members of your family and friends, correct?
MR. JACKSON: Did that group chat — I'm most interested in the group chat between yourself, Nicole Albert, Brian Albert, Matt McCabe — on or around that group chat starting on or around February 1st, 2022. Okay, does that look like a true and accurate reflection of the text messages between — or certain of the text messages between and among that group?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. The ones I've seen, yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: Can you just tell me what page you're on?
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. Of course, Your Honor. The Bates stamp number — 2148, start. Thank you. And they should go relatively chronologically — you're on — our page by page. Um, on February 1st, 2022, around 2:15 in the afternoon on this group chat, did you receive a message from your husband on the group? That's — this is on page 2148. That should be the middle bubble — um, the middle and the bottom bubble. Quote: "Julie said Channel 4 is in De—." You see that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And the response from Matt McCabe is — eating, I assume — quote: "Ask Chris to ask some questions. Tell them the guy never went in the house," end quote. You see that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You look at the next page — the top, 2149. There's a one-word answer from Brian Albert. What is that—
MS. MCCABE: Exactly.
MR. JACKSON: Does it appear to you from this chat that Matt McCabe was directing witnesses — specifically Chris Albert — what to say to the news media?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that.
MR. JACKSON: Is that what you're seeing?
MS. MCCABE: That is not how I would understand this.
MR. JACKSON: "He never went in that — tell them he never went in the house" — was the story that had been concocted between and among this group of people on this chat? Correct?
MS. MCCABE: No. John never went in the house. It wasn't a story. It was the truth. And it is the truth. Just like she said, "I hit him."
MR. JACKSON: Correct. So according to this chat, at least at the very base level, this is one witness telling another witness to give certain information to the media that could be useful to the group? Correct? Tell them the guy never went in the house. Right?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Matt McCabe was directing Chris Albert — Chris Albert wasn't even at the house, was he?
MS. MCCABE: Chris Albert was not at the house.
MR. JACKSON: Now, but this chat is Matt — I'm sorry — Matt McCabe, your husband, telling Chris Albert, who was never at the house and would have no personal knowledge of what happened at the house, to specifically say the guy never came in the house — the guy, by the way, being John O'Keefe. Right? That's what he wrote. Does that sound to you a little bit like collusion?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: At some point you sought out um, Kerry Roberts's cell phone number — shortly after the 29th, or maybe not — maybe on the 29th?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. You didn't have her cell number in your phone?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: One of your primary concerns was to make sure that you got in contact with Kerry Roberts before the day ended, right?
MS. MCCABE: I wanted to speak to Kerry as she was on her way to the hospital, and I wanted to check in on John.
MR. JACKSON: One of your primary concerns, Miss McCabe, was that you wanted to make sure you got a hold of Kerry Roberts and had communication with her before the end of the day?
MS. MCCABE: It had nothing to do with getting in touch with her by the end of the day. It was a friend reaching out, wondering how her friend was doing, who was just taken off the front lawn on the 29th. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So before the end of the day, Miss McCabe — you do this all day long — before the end of the day, you were trying to get a hold of Kerry Roberts? Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Immediately in the morning I wanted to get in touch with her.
MR. JACKSON: Right. So you sought out her phone number. First you tried my client Karen Read?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. But then you found another source for that information? Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you said just a second ago you were claiming that you needed that information because you knew that she was on the way — uh, to see John O'Keefe's parents. She was picking them up — um, and you wanted to check on them?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You've been friends with the O'Keefe family for years, haven't you?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So you didn't have a need to get Kerry Roberts's phone number, did you?
MS. MCCABE: I wanted to speak with — see how she was doing. I was not going to call Peg.
MR. JACKSON: You had her phone number, didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: I do. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So if you wanted to check on somebody, why not just call her?
MS. MCCABE: I was not going to call Peg O'Keefe on the way to see her son at the hospital to check on your friend — that was just too much. I wanted to ask Kerry. I didn't — I'm sure she was bogged down and probably did not want to speak with anyone. It was a simple thing. I made sure I got Kerry Roberts's number so I could check in and see how John was doing. Also, we had just been through an extremely traumatic event together. There's nothing evil here.
MR. JACKSON: Kerry Roberts's number, Miss McCabe, is because you wanted to make sure that you controlled her story as she left your site? Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Absolutely not.
MR. JACKSON: Did you take any steps whatsoever — any steps whatsoever — to influence Kerry Roberts's statements?
MS. MCCABE: No. Because that would be collusion.
MR. JACKSON: What do you—
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you write a text to the group including Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, and Matt McCabe, where you inform them that — quote — and this is — you — on page 40, I'm sorry, 2158 — where you inform them, quote: "Kerry is here going over timeline," end quote? Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So you reported back to Brian, Nicole, and Matt that Kerry was — where?
MS. MCCABE: She came over my house.
MR. JACKSON: And you two sat down and went over a, quote, "timeline" together?
MS. MCCABE: Peggy spoke to Kerry.
MR. JACKSON: Yes or no? I didn't ask about Peggy. Well, that's where the timeline started?
MS. MCCABE: That's where the timeline started.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ask Kerry, or did Kerry come — show up at your house and, quote-unquote, go over a timeline?
MS. MCCABE: Kerry showed up asking to sit down with me to do a timeline so we would remember everything that had happened.
MR. JACKSON: And you wanted to be super helpful about that, right?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, ask it differently.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. You wanted to be helpful to Kerry Roberts?
MS. MCCABE: The two of us were trying to figure out what had happened to our friend.
MR. JACKSON: And so you made sure that you created and drafted with Kerry Roberts a timeline?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I didn't make sure of anything. She was the one that asked me to do it.
MR. JACKSON: And not only did you create a timeline, you then reported back to your group — Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, Matt McCabe — she was creating this timeline with you on February 1st, 2022. Isn't that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: After you created or drafted this timeline with Kerry, she actually sat for an interview with the police, did she not?
MS. MCCABE: Um, that's not in the — the chats. I'm
MR. JACKSON: I'm just asking. She sat down for an interview with the police, didn't she?
MS. MCCABE: When—
MR. JACKSON: Tell me. It's my question.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure of when you're talking about.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, let's start over. Yes — after this timeline was created on February 1st, at some point thereafter Kerry Roberts conducted a formal interview with the police about this case? Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Do you have the report of that date? We're sort of burying the lede. She did the interview in your living room, ma'am. Right?
MS. MCCABE: There was — on Tuesday, two officers came to the house and she sat in the other room and spoke with them.
MR. JACKSON: So — using my question — she did an interview at your house?
MS. MCCABE: They came to my house to interview me, and she happened to be there, so they asked if they could speak with her also.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did she or did she not do an interview at your house?
MS. MCCABE: She did. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That wasn't that hard. You were present for that interview, weren't you?
MS. MCCABE: I was eating dinner.
MR. JACKSON: You were present for the interview, Miss McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: I was in the house. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you listened to that interview, didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: You made sure you gave Kerry Roberts everything she needed for that interview? Correct? Quote: "Everything she might need for that interview," didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: And where is this that you're quoting from?
MR. JACKSON: Oh, I'm sorry. When you quoted, I thought it was in here. I apologize. We'll get to it in a second. Did you tell her everything that you wanted her to say?
MS. MCCABE: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: Did you in any way attempt to influence her testimony before she gave that interview in your living room?
MS. MCCABE: Absolutely not. Kerry is her own person.
MR. JACKSON: But then you did report her progress to the Albert and McCabe group in that group chat, didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: Can you show me where, please?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Isn't it true that in a group text with Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, Matt McCabe, you wrote — and this is on page 2159 — quote: "And we handed Kerry — " sorry — "and handed phone to Kerry." You remember that?
MS. MCCABE: I see that. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And the very next text is from you, telling the group, "She's telling him everything," in all caps, two exclamation points?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And then you went on to say at 2:55 p.m. — at basically the same moment — quote: "All the stuff," end quote? Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So when you said a couple of minutes ago that you weren't listening to what she was saying — that was a lie, wasn't it?
MS. MCCABE: We're talking about two different interviews. I'm talking about when the officers came to my house and spoke to her there. You're saying that I handed the phone over, so that would be a different interview.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, this is on February 1st, 2:55. I wasn't there — you were there. She was in your house on February 1st giving an interview to the police, wasn't she?
MS. MCCABE: One day she was there giving an interview to the police, and while she was there — but I do not believe it was at 2:55. It was later in the evening. So I think you might have two events confused.
MR. JACKSON: So either way, whether she was on the phone with the police or sitting there in your living room with the police, you were listening to her and reporting back to the group, "She's telling them everything"?
MS. MCCABE: The one — no, it's not correct. The one that she did with the police she did in the other room, and the one she did on the phone — I said she's telling them everything because Kerry is an extremely blunt person, and she was giving personal feelings about the situation, and I was horrified by it.
MR. JACKSON: To the police. To the police, and you're listening.
MS. MCCABE: I heard a statement she said that horrified me.
MR. JACKSON: And then you're reporting it back to the group, weren't you?
MS. MCCABE: That one thing she stated, I reported back to the group. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So you're listening in on a police interview? Correct?
MS. MCCABE: One — it was a phone call. One side of it.
MR. JACKSON: Right. It was a phone call — you're listening in on a police interview, one side of it. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You're eavesdropping on that interview. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm sitting with her and she's taking the call.
MR. JACKSON: And then you're reporting that interview back — or her— ...success in that interview in your mind, back to the group involving Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, and Matt McCabe — isn't that what you're doing?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: Absolutely not — that is not how it went. I was horrified because Kerry's a blunt person, not like me, and she had made a comment about Miss Read and Mr. O'Keefe's relationship, and I was shocked and horrified that she said it the way that she did.
MR. JACKSON: You were so shocked and horrified that you said, "Oh my God, she's telling them everything." Yes. You decided it was so important that you needed to report that back to Brian Albert's friends.
MS. MCCABE: I was horrified.
MR. JACKSON: So you reported that back?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I said she told —
MR. JACKSON: — them everything. When you were first confronted with these messages at a separate proceeding in June of 2023, you claimed that you couldn't remember what that exchange was about. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And now you just all of a sudden have this newfound memory of exactly what that text message was referring to. Correct?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, because Kerry Roberts said a statement and it jogged — I said, "Oh my God, that's what I meant when I said she said everything."
MR. JACKSON: When did she say this statement?
MS. MCCABE: Probably in the fall. She has made this statement a few times in reference to Karen.
MR. JACKSON: You and Kerry Roberts are still coordinating your — — statements together?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, no, we're not. It's just an opinion she has of Miss Read.
MR. JACKSON: And all of a sudden that became your "everything," "all the stuff"?
MS. MCCABE: It didn't just become it. I forgot that I had written it, and one day Kerry made the statement, and I'm sure it happens to everyone — you forget something and then you're like, "Oh my God, that's what it was."
MR. JACKSON: No, I'm not sure that happens to everybody.
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Let me ask you a different question. When you were asked under oath a year ago — when things were fresher in your mind — you were asked specifically what you were referring to, and your answer was, "I have no idea." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Because you didn't want to tell them that you had coordinated your statement with Kerry Roberts — isn't that right?
MS. MCCABE: No, that is not right. I did not remember what it was.
MR. JACKSON: Went on to be asked specifically — do you know who you were referring to — and you said, "Maybe Kerry, maybe I'm talking to Kerry." And the question was, "But you don't recall this text?" And your answer was, "I don't remember." That's what you testified to a year ago. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: But now you're talking about some memory of a disparaging comment that Kerry Roberts has about my client, and that's the "everything" in your mind?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, the things that she was —
MR. JACKSON: — saying. Quite obviously, what you were referring to in that text in real time, Miss McCabe, was that Kerry Roberts was telling the police "everything" that you had laid out for her in this timeline meeting you had with her. Correct?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained as to that form. You can ask that question in a proper way.
MR. JACKSON: The "everything" you referred to in that text in real time — was it what you had worked out with Kerry in that timeline meeting? Was that the "everything" you were referring to?
MS. MCCABE: Incorrect. We never worked together to come up with a story. We have the facts, and the "everything" was a comment about your client. You went on in —
MR. JACKSON: — your group chat with Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, Matt McCabe — to give running updates about whether or not Kerry Roberts was actually following the script. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Incorrect. There was no script.
MR. JACKSON: At page 167, Matt McCabe texted the group, "Brian, comma, sitting separate," end quote. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Sounds like Matt McCabe is reporting back to Brian Albert, following your instructions — "we're sitting separately."
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: One minute later, Brian Albert had a one-word response to the "Brian, sitting separate." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What was that one-word response?
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: So it sounded like he was giving his approval for how people were situated in that meeting. Correct?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, sustained.
MS. MCCABE: At page 2168, 5:15 — it's very hard to just look at two texts and try to understand what the context is.
MR. JACKSON: Ma'am, if you don't understand a question I have, just let me know. But otherwise, let me ask a question. On page 2168 at 5:15, you wrote to the group, "You listening?" Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And at the same time — 5:15 — you then wrote, "Cops here again," end quote. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That was in reference to the police coming over to your house to further interview Kerry Roberts, wasn't it?
MS. MCCABE: That was when they came to talk to me, and Kerry Roberts was at my house. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And a few minutes later, at 5:23, Nicole Albert texts, "Call us after" —
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. And a few minutes after that, Matt McCabe texts, "This girl could write a book... nonstop." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So obviously Matt McCabe, along with you, was listening to Kerry Roberts in her interview.
MS. MCCABE: We were sitting in the kitchen eating dinner with our children and Kerry Roberts was in a different room. But she was going on and on and on, as she does. Because they were in the other room — and you could — I could hear voices.
MR. JACKSON: You could hear her interview with the police.
MS. MCCABE: I did not hear her interview. I could hear them talking, but I was sitting at a table with my children eating dinner, getting ready to go to a — — basketball game.
MR. JACKSON: You then responded to Matt McCabe, "I love it." Yes?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And then — you responded about this interview. You just testified under oath and under penalty of perjury: not hearing anything, just hearing voices. Your next text was, "She is telling them everything, yes," end quote. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So what you said just a few minutes ago about not knowing what she was saying — just hearing voices — that was a lie, wasn't it?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson —
MR. JACKSON: And a couple of seconds later, Nicole Albert responds. One word — what was her response?
MS. MCCABE: Good.
MR. JACKSON: So in order, those texts say "you listening" — you say "you listening" — the —
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: At the end of the day, you were eavesdropping on an interview Kerry Roberts — — was having with law enforcement in their official capacity.
MS. MCCABE: No. I was sitting eating dinner, and some of the things obviously I overheard, but I was not eavesdropping. There's a possibility — if I'm sitting in this room eating dinner and someone's in another room talking, you can hear bits and pieces. Was I eavesdropping? No. Is there some big cover-up story? No.
MR. JACKSON: But why does your testimony keep evolving? A second ago, you told this jury, "I couldn't hear a thing — all I could hear was voices, like muffled voices from the other room" — she's going on and on about something. Yeah? When I confronted you with a text message where you said, "She's telling them everything," now it's, "Well, I heard a couple of things." Which is it?
MS. MCCABE: She was going on and on and on, like she does.
MR. JACKSON: And you were listening — on and on and on, like you do.
MS. MCCABE: I was probably hearing bits and pieces.
MR. JACKSON: Why was it so important to report back to the group that you were happy that Kerry Roberts was saying "everything"?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: We had both lost our friend. Kerry Roberts was in shock, as was I, in shock. The two of us had all this information that just kept coming back to us and back to us, and it was — it's terrifying when you go — — through an experience and you're in shock, and Kerry was remembering things, I was remembering things. So I was happy for her that she was piecing it all together, and I had pieced it all together, because at the end of the day our friend was dead and we were trying to figure out what had happened to him together. There was no direction. We were all trying to figure out what had happened, because that's what you do when you lose somebody you love.
MR. JACKSON: Were you happy for her, or were you happy for you and Brian and Matt and Nicole?
MS. MCCABE: For me and for her, because we were going through this together. There was no — [unintelligible] — the story out that you're —
MR. JACKSON: — trying to get out through Kerry Roberts?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, I'll allow that.
MS. MCCABE: There is no story. There are facts and truth on this side. There's no story.
MR. JACKSON: The story that you've created is not the truth. Did I create "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him" — or did you? That's fact. A fact that conveniently you didn't mention — in your report to Lank, grand jury — right? That kind of fact.
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson.
MS. MCCABE: Right. That is the fact I mentioned. So in some reports it's there.
MR. JACKSON: The fact is you wanted to keep very close tabs on Kerry Roberts, didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: January 29th — if you look on page 2223, did you text the group, "Kerry talked to cops and kept it simple," end —
MS. MCCABE: — quote? Yes.
MR. JACKSON: A habit for you to keep tabs on Kerry Roberts, is it?
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: You'll agree that over and over and over and over again you're reporting to this tight group — Nicole, Brian Albert, your husband — how Kerry's doing in her stories to the police, aren't you? Over and over and over.
MS. MCCABE: I am telling them what is going on. I wouldn't say it —
MR. JACKSON: Well, let's count them. Was there four of them? You're saying "over and over and over and over" is a bit extreme?
MS. MCCABE: I see.
MR. JACKSON: So you take issue with the way that I phrase "over and over and over"?
MS. MCCABE: Well, it's misleading, I believe.
MR. JACKSON: I see. Okay. Let me see if I can try this in a non-misleading way.
JUDGE CANNONE: Counsel, okay.
MR. JACKSON: So — at least one of us. I'll withdraw. You consistently reported back to the group how Kerry Roberts was doing with the police, didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: I would update them after Kerry saw and spoke to the police. Again, we were all trying to figure out what had happened to John.
MR. JACKSON: There's yet another text from Brian's wife Nicole on January 29th, and this is on page 2226 — she says, "We'll get more info tomorrow, don't want to text about it," end quote. I mean, you texted, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. What's that about?
JUDGE CANNONE: Jackson, I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: We decided that we would talk on the phone — my children look on my phone, her children look on her phone — we were working with the police. I was sharing — information and everything that had happened. We didn't want it to leave our little circle because we were trying to figure out what happened, and we're not going to go running around letting people see, "Oh my gosh, they think this might have happened, or that might have happened." It was nothing more than let's not text about it.
MR. JACKSON: So you wanted to keep it — your words — in your little circle. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't want it all out there, what we had thought had happened. I was going to let the police do their job.
MR. JACKSON: So by definition, the info that Nicole Albert was talking about — that needed to be kept very tight, very secret — correct?
MS. MCCABE: We needed the police to do their job. So we weren't going to text. And Nicole wanted her texts, and the group wanted their texts to be kept secret and private. Isn't that right? Not secret and private. We just weren't going to communicate certain things over text.
MR. JACKSON: Did you give — or did anybody give you — any private information? The next day, on January 30th?
MS. MCCABE: Didn't even give me private information.
MR. JACKSON: So let me put it in context. That text from Nicole Albert — "We'll get more info tomorrow, I don't want to text about it" — that was on the 29th. Right?
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Did you get additional info on the 30th, the next day?
MS. MCCABE: I have no idea.
MR. JACKSON: Did anything significant happen on January 30th in connection with this case? Any meetings, any get-togethers that you can think of?
MS. MCCABE: I went to the O'Keefes' house.
MR. JACKSON: Other than that — anything else?
MS. MCCABE: On the way home — um, Kerry Roberts's daughter is good friends with Michael Lank, so we dropped her off at Michael Lank's house. And Mike's wife came out of the house — him and Kerry are friends — and she, you know, jumped in the car and was consoling Kerry and asking how the O'Keefes were doing, and you know, we talked to her.
MR. JACKSON: So you pulled up to Michael Lank's house on the 30th. That's never been reported, has it?
MS. MCCABE: I guess I never thought much of it.
MR. JACKSON: Never thought about reporting the fact that one of the first responding officers on the case, working for Canton PD — which is conflicted off the case — you had a meeting with him. It was unreported. The next day.
MS. MCCABE: I didn't meet — I didn't meet with Michael Lank.
MR. JACKSON: I see. So you pulled up in the car. Tell me about that again. You pulled up in the car, and what happened?
MS. MCCABE: And Alex, her daughter, went into the house.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And then you just drove away?
MS. MCCABE: No. Michael's wife came out of the house.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And y'all had a conversation about what?
MS. MCCABE: She got in the car. Her and Kerry are friends, and she was checking on Kerry — you know, just saying, "Oh my God, this is so crazy," just checking in on the O'Keefes. How long did that last? Well, Kerry's a talker, so — could have been an hour. Could have been an hour. Standing outside — sitting in the car. Sitting in the car.
MR. JACKSON: On January 30th?
MS. MCCABE: Never came in the house.
MR. JACKSON: Not February 30th — I said January 30th. Never went in the house?
MS. MCCABE: I might have run in to go to the bathroom. It's the back end of a blizzard. It's freezing cold outside. Sitting in the car for an hour. The car was running. Kerry and they were talking. It's her friend.
MR. JACKSON: Did you have any conversation, before your testimony today, with anybody about you going to Michael Lank's house on January 30th? Anybody?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Tell me about that. Who was it, and when?
MS. MCCABE: It was a couple of weeks ago. The DA's office.
MR. JACKSON: The DA's office had an interview with you. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Not an interview. They just explained this process. I mean — a conversation? How about that? Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You met with folks. Who'd you meet with?
MS. MCCABE: Um, Mr. Lally, Ms. McLaughlin, Steve Nelson, um, Trooper Brian Tully — um, I believe — oh, um — and another woman. I can't remember her name, unfortunately. Someone from the DA's office.
MR. JACKSON: Yes? No? Lynn Bean?
MS. MCCABE: Um, she's here today. She works with Steve Nelson.
MR. JACKSON: Ah. But an employee at the DA's office. Yes.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: It sounds like a pretty big meeting.
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't call it a big meeting. There was what — five of them?
MR. JACKSON: How long did you — five of them, and then you —
MS. MCCABE: My daughter Allie came with me also.
MR. JACKSON: The meeting's getting bigger. Anybody else?
MS. MCCABE: No, we both went.
MR. JACKSON: Was Allie in the room when you were — say "interviewed," but you take issue with every word I use — when you were talked to by the DA?
MS. MCCABE: Allie and I were both in the room when they went over everything, you know, how this all works, because this is all brand new to us. And then they asked me to leave the room.
MR. JACKSON: You were about to say — I lost the end of that sentence. "When they received" — received what?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't mean the word "received."
MR. JACKSON: Did you receive anything?
MS. MCCABE: No. I looked at my grand jury notes.
MR. JACKSON: Now, at this meeting, was anybody taking notes?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You have a bunch of lawyers and DAs and nobody has a notepad in front of them?
MS. MCCABE: I believe Mr. Lally had a number of folders on the desk — not I — no, I do not believe anyone was taking notes. It was a casual meeting to explain this process.
MR. JACKSON: Is that meeting recorded in any way you're aware of?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: How long did the meeting last?
MS. MCCABE: Allie and I were probably in the room — I don't — approximately 20 minutes. Then I left and they spoke with her, and then I went back in and they spoke with me.
MR. JACKSON: How long did they speak with you?
MS. MCCABE: Honestly, maybe a half hour — an hour.
MR. JACKSON: And during that half hour to an hour, did they go over with you what they expected your testimony to be?
MS. MCCABE: They never spoke about what they expected my testimony to be. They just, um, showed me some pictures that might be shown. I listened to the 911 —
MR. JACKSON: What pictures?
MS. MCCABE: Um, just of the house, and how I'd be asked to, you know, show — okay, "We're going to put a picture of the house, you'll have a laser." Okay.
MR. JACKSON: When we started this conversation, it was because you said — in answer to my question — was anything ever brought up to you about this meeting at Lank's house? You said yes. So obviously they did talk to you about your testimony. It wasn't just about the process. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I was told — I asked what discovery had been turned in in regard to me.
MR. JACKSON: So you wanted to prepare, to make sure that you knew what you might be asked on cross-examination. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I wanted to know what was coming. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you knew that one of the things was coming — well, let me ask it a different way. During this meeting, did Mr. Lally tell you one of the things that's going to be coming is you had an off-the-books meeting at Lank's house for 45 minutes? Did he tell you that?
MS. MCCABE: No. That's not how I was told.
MR. JACKSON: Did he tell you that the defense had uncovered a report that established that you were actually at Michael Lank's house for 45 minutes, that had never been reported to the defense or the prosecution before the phone extraction had been done? He tell you that?
MS. MCCABE: I was told — I was asked, "Oh, were you at Michael Lank's on the 30th?"
MR. JACKSON: So you've had a lot of time to come up with a story about why you were at Michael Lank's. Correct?
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MS. MCCABE: I didn't need time to make up a story because I have the truth of why we went.
MR. JACKSON: And the truth, according to you, is you pulled up at Michael Lank's house — the first responding officer, and a friend of the Alberts — had a meeting with him the next day, that was never reported to anybody for any purpose. Just met with his wife out in the car, while the car was running, for 45 minutes to an hour. That's your story.
MS. MCCABE: It's not a story. It's the truth. Kerry dropped her daughter off. The wife came out. Kerry is a talker. They started talking. A tragedy had happened the day before.
MR. JACKSON: It is interesting — would you not agree — that the day before you have this off-the-books meeting at Michael Lank's house, Nicole Albert says, "We'll get more info tomorrow," meaning the very day you show up at Lank's house?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I never spoke with Mike Lank at his house. It was not an off-the-books meeting. It was Kerry dropping her daughter at one of her good friends' house, whose husband happens to be a Canton cop. That is what it is. That is the truth.
MR. JACKSON: A lot of coincidences.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Um — that, by the way — what did Mr. Lally show you in respect of this issue, about this meeting at Michael Lank's house?
MS. MCCABE: He showed me nothing.
MR. JACKSON: He just told you about it?
MS. MCCABE: Brian Tully told me.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What did Mr. Tully tell you? What exactly did he tell you at this meeting about this Michael Lank issue?
MS. MCCABE: He said, "Did you go to Michael Lank's on January 30th?" And at first I said, "No, I've never been to his house." And then I thought about it and I said, "Oh my gosh, yes, I did go there." And that was the extent of the conversation.
MR. JACKSON: You said, "Yeah, I did go there," and he didn't ask a follow-up like, "What the heck were you doing at Michael Lank's house the day after this issue?" He didn't ask a follow-up like that?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe he did.
MR. JACKSON: So Trooper Tully had you come down for an interview. He confronted you with a fact that had never been disclosed before — when you showed up at Michael Lank's house — and when you said — your words were — "Oh my gosh, yeah, I think I did go there" — and he didn't ask a follow-up question.
MS. MCCABE: He was there. You're spinning all of this.
MR. JACKSON: Ma'am, I do a lot of things. I don't spin. There's a judge here to make sure that I don't spin. I'm asking you a question. It's very direct.
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe he asked me a follow-up question.
MR. JACKSON: So that was the end of that conversation about Michael. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Lally didn't have any follow-up questions?
MS. MCCABE: I don't believe Mr. Lally was in the room.
MR. JACKSON: Who else? I thought you said Mr. Lally.
MS. MCCABE: Ms. McLaughlin — they were — they might not have been in the room at that time.
MR. JACKSON: I see. So Mr. Lally just happened to — what — just step out?
MS. MCCABE: It was a different time. Mr. Lally was in and out of the conversation.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Lally was not there when this conversation happened?
MS. MCCABE: Because I met with Brian Tully and he was not there.
MR. JACKSON: Is Brian Tully taking notes?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: He's a State Trooper interviewing a witness, and —
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: The same report that has you at Michael Lank's house also has you ...picking up Nicole Albert, going by — going by 34 Fairview — just before you went to Michael Lank's house. You aware of that?
MS. MCCABE: We did not pick up Nicole Albert.
MR. JACKSON: So you went by 34 Fairview, then diverted, and right after you went by 34 Fairview went directly over to Michael Lank's house. What was the reason that you stopped by 34 Fairview first?
MS. MCCABE: We didn't stop by. Maybe Kerry slowed down, but we did not stop by 34.
MR. JACKSON: So you did a drive-by of 34 Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: laughs No, that's how we get to Michael Lank's house.
MR. JACKSON: If the report shows that you actually stopped at 34 Fairview and then went to Michael Lank's house, would we have another "oh my gosh" moment?
MS. MCCABE: Nope. No, oh my — — gosh moment. We did not pick up Nicole Albert.
MR. JACKSON: Did anybody else go with you over to Michael Lank's house?
MS. MCCABE: No, it was Kerry, myself, and her daughter.
MR. JACKSON: Um — maybe approach briefly?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. We're going to try and go right up to 1:00, okay?
MR. JACKSON: Ms. McCabe, we've talked in some detail about your calls with John O'Keefe on the morning of January 29th. You recall that conversation? I want to focus your attention on at or about 12:14 a.m., moving up to about 12:50 a.m. You have that time in mind?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've seen the Cellebrite extraction from John O'Keefe's phone, which Mr. Lally showed you at other times, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you went through the series of phone calls that were made and that appear on his extraction report, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: I just want to run through those timewise very quickly, just to orient you, if I can, and then I'll ask you some specific questions about it. There was a call at 12:14 a.m., correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That was a call that you indicated was answered — you had a conversation with Mr. O'Keefe, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: It was a call of 12:18 and 47 seconds. That call also was answered by you — John O'Keefe made that phone call, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Then there's the 12:29 and 44-second call that you indicated was not answered, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that was a call to you — sorry, from you to him, correct? There was a 12:41 call from you to John O'Keefe, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: There was a 12:41 and 54-second call from you to him. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: There was a 12:43 and 19-second call from you to him?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: 12:46 a.m. and 16 seconds, from you to him?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: 12:47 and 52 seconds, from you to him?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And 12:50 and 37 seconds, from you to him?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You saw in his extraction report that all of those calls after 12:28 were missed calls, correct?
MS. MCCABE: In his report that you showed me, correct.
MR. JACKSON: In other words, the only two calls that were answered — the 12:14 and the 12:18 — everything else was a missed call?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. I would have to refer to it again, because I've seen so many reports.
MR. JACKSON: And, Ms. McCabe, according to the extraction reports that you've seen this morning, comparing yours to his, every single one of those calls was deleted off your phone, correct?
MS. MCCABE: According to the reports — according to that report, yes.
MR. JACKSON: Let me ask you another question. Have you ever misplaced your phone?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, in life.
MR. JACKSON: Everybody does it, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What's one of the first things you do if you're with your daughter or your husband or a friend, and you're in your house, and you misplace your phone? What do you do?
MS. MCCABE: I'll ask them to call my phone.
MR. JACKSON: Right, even over and over and over, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Could be as many as five, six, seven times.
MR. JACKSON: Usually you hear it the first or second time. You're looking for a buzz or a ring, isn't that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you might do that if you're searching for a missing phone, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: With regard to the calls that were deleted from your phone — you were asked about this under oath at another proceeding, weren't you?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you claimed at another proceeding that you had an explanation for all these missed calls — starting at 12:29, 12:41, 12:41, 12:43, 12:46, 12:47, 12:50 — Ms. McCabe, you have an explanation for that, right?
MS. MCCABE: Can I see the report?
MR. JACKSON: I'm asking you about your prior testimony, and I'm asking about these calls.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I'm asking — can I see it, please? I'm
MR. JACKSON: Asking you a different question. At this other proceeding — under oath — yes, right? You explained that these calls were what? These missed calls — incessant missed calls — what were they? You used a word — in fact, two words.
MS. MCCABE: I believe I used the word "butt dials."
MR. JACKSON: You claimed that every one of these calls was a butt dial. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So according to you, you literally butt-dialed John O'Keefe's phone six times in the span of 19 minutes. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember making any of those calls, so my assumption is I put my phone in my back pocket and that was it.
MR. JACKSON: When you dial someone by mistake — hit a button, set your phone down — — phone has to be open. You'll hear that, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Can't be locked. Takes several iterations of movement to get a phone open — face ID or password, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So when you hit the button by mistake, walk away — that's a butt dial. People call butt dials that. What happens with the call?
MS. MCCABE: I assume it goes to voicemail.
MR. JACKSON: Good assumption, because that's exactly what it does, isn't it? You've had a phone for a lot of years, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: It rings and rings and rings until it goes to voicemail, correct? So in order to hang up that butt dial, you have to interact with that phone yet again, don't you?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So if you had six butt dials — seven, I think it's — — seven butt dials — you'd not only have to interact with the phone once to butt-dial John, you'd then have to interact with it every single time to turn off that phone ringer so it doesn't go to voicemail, wouldn't you?
PARENTHETICAL: [Sidebar/informal exchanges]
JUDGE CANNONE: Mr. Lally, who else might you have tomorrow?
MS. MCCABE: I suppose.
MR. JACKSON: Which makes 14 interfaces with that phone over the course of 19 minutes. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I mean, I guess. I don't have it all right in front of me, but there were also text messages I was sending. So again, maybe I said, "oh shoot, I called them," and then I turned it off.
MR. JACKSON: But your claim is you don't remember those incessant butt dials and those incessant hang-ups at all, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I honestly don't.
MR. JACKSON: So you would have had to forget that you interacted — by the way, you'll agree that the phone extraction showed that John got no voicemail, right?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't look, but —
MR. JACKSON: So that means you would have had to interact with that phone 14 times over the course of 19 minutes, at the exact time frame that the Commonwealth suggests cost his life.
MR. LALLY: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. You can ask that differently. And this will be your last question for today, please.
MR. JACKSON: Yes, Your Honor. The period between 12:29 and 12:50 — which is the exact period that you were, quote, butt-dialing John multiple times — that's also the exact period that John O'Keefe was rendered incapacitated. Is that right?
JUDGE CANNONE: That's — sustained. We'll start up again tomorrow. Okay, thank you. All right, folks — I'm going to step down. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so jurors, please do not discuss this case with anyone. Don't do any independent research or investigation into the case. If you happen to see or hear or read anything about the case, please avert your eyes. Tomorrow will be a full day. The forecast — it's going to be very hot. You'll see, this court fluctuates — it could be really cold in here, could be really hot in here. So be sure to bring layers. All right, thank you.
COURT OFFICER: Close and leave your notebooks. After jury exits
JUDGE CANNONE: Mr. Jackson, this is — you want to approach?
MR. LALLY: So Miss Roberts would be next, Laura Sullivan, Marietta Sullivan, and then I think it would be Mr. Higgins after that.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. All right. It's not likely we'll get through all of those, correct?
MR. LALLY: Probably not.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. All right, thank you very much. We'll see you tomorrow.
COURT OFFICER: All rise for the court. Informal exchanges as court clears