Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveKatie McLaughlin - Cross
587 linesMR. JACKSON: Good morning, Miss McLaughlin.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Good morning.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that one of the things that is paramount to the lifesaving effort or the medical assistance that you and your colleagues provide is to determine what the cause is of the injury. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: To determine — just to gather as much information as we can about his history and recent events that could have precipitated how we found the patient.
MR. JACKSON: What you said on direct examination was, quote, "what happened and what's going on," end quote. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So, for instance — "what happened" — you want to find out and differentiate what happened. Is it a gunshot?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Can you repeat the question, please?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. When you're asking "what happened," you're trying to determine what happened. For instance, one of the things you're trying to do is differentiate between a gunshot and a knife wound. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Or poison, or ingestion of a poisonous substance, or a heart attack.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: In this particular scenario — next question. Thank you. I'm asking about in general: when you're taking in information, trying to download information at a scene, you're trying to determine, as you said, quote, "what happened," correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: That's important to determine. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: You want to get the person's age. You want to get the person's date of birth. You want to get the person's allergies, for instance.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: But you also — paramount among those — you want to find out what happened. Why are we here? Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did a person fall out of a tree?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
MR. JACKSON: Stumbled up a stair step.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
MR. JACKSON: In doing so, it's important to relay that information to others as well. You would agree with that, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That's the whole point, Miss McLaughlin. You want to gather the information and then let others know exactly what happened and document that as best you possibly can so that the lifesaving efforts or the medical assistance can continue for the patient. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: You have to share the information that you got with the people who are providing care. And one of the ways you do that is by writing it down. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Can I ask you — who did you speak with before your testimony today in anticipation of your testimony today?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I met with the DA's office a few times. At the DA's office — Mr. Brennan, a witness advocate, and there were different troopers there at different meetings.
MR. JACKSON: What did you and Mr. Brennan discuss at these — well, let me ask you first of all, foundationally, how many meetings were there?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Three.
MR. JACKSON: Three. When were they?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: One in maybe January — was just a meeting. One a few weeks ago, we reviewed the testimony from the last proceeding. And then yesterday, briefly, to say that I'm getting called and I'm going today, and if I had any questions.
MR. JACKSON: Let's talk about the one a couple of weeks ago. Where was that meeting held?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: At the DA's office.
MR. JACKSON: And you said you reviewed testimony with whom?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I watched the testimony from the first trial. It was Mr. Brennan, myself, a witness advocate, and perhaps Trooper Tully.
MR. JACKSON: And you went over your testimony at the last proceeding, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We just watched it.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Yeah. There obviously were questions about that testimony once you finished watching it, I'm guessing. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I guess so.
MR. JACKSON: Discussed certain aspects of the testimony. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Brennan told you that, for instance, he was going to bring out on direct examination — his examination — your relationship with Caitlin Albert. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: He said he would ask me about the relationship.
MR. JACKSON: And that was in anticipation of me asking about that relationship. Correct?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Brennan told you that he wanted to make sure that he brought out that information so that it wasn't brought out on cross-examination by me.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: What did Mr. Brennan say about the reason he wanted to bring out the relationship with Caitlin Albert on direct examination?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: There was no reason that he gave.
MR. JACKSON: But he did tell you that he wanted to make sure that y'all covered that on direct examination — during his examination. Correct?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did he say something like that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you say something like that — "I would like this information brought out so it's not brought out on cross-examination"?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: At the last hearing, when you testified about a year ago, that wasn't brought out on direct examination, was it?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Let me approach.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: May I continue, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Miss McLaughlin, we were talking about — very briefly — your testimony about a year ago. In your testimony a year ago, you did not disclose in your initial conversation the fact of your relationship with Miss Albert, did you?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection. I move for an instruction.
JUDGE CANNONE: The objection is sustained. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: Who was it that asked the question about Miss Albert a year ago?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell anyone — Trooper Proctor, any investigator, anybody from the DA's office — last year about your relationship with Caitlin Albert?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll —
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. Only when there started to be a lot of harassment and insinuations and things that started coming out online. I had said maybe once to them that I was concerned. I was being harassed.
MR. JACKSON: My question, Miss McLaughlin, was before the information was disclosed, which was during the first proceeding.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Let's hear the question.
MR. JACKSON: Before that— before that information was disclosed during the first proceeding, in any of your interviews, with Trooper Proctor or anybody else from the Massachusetts State Police or anybody from the DA's office, did you disclose— did you volunteer that you had a relationship with those people, before the first proceeding?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, I'm saying I told the DA about the harassment and the insinuations. That was before the first trial when I met with them.
MR. JACKSON: How was there harassment and insinuations if it hadn't been disclosed at the first proceeding?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Because it's out there everywhere on the internet and has been before the first proceeding.
MR. JACKSON: McLaughlin, before you ever testified. That's my question. Do you understand my question?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's been going on since before the first proceeding.
MR. JACKSON: If you hadn't testified at the first proceeding, at which point it was revealed, how could you have ever suffered any harassment for it? It wasn't disclosed yet, Miss McLaughlin. Do you understand?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
MR. JACKSON: Who did you tell at the DA's office?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The— the— the relationship that I had with Caitlin Albert had been out there. It had been published and proliferated on the internet. So that was before the first proceeding.
MR. JACKSON: And who did you tell at the DA's office about this before the first proceeding?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't remember who it was or the meeting.
MR. JACKSON: Was it Mr. Lally?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It could have been.
MR. JACKSON: Do you have a memory of that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not specifically. I don't remember who it was.
MR. JACKSON: Was it Miss Laura McLaughlin?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Like I said, I don't remember specifically.
MR. JACKSON: Miss Laura McLaughlin.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No [unintelligible]. Like I said, not specifically.
MR. JACKSON: Let's talk about that initial call to 34 Fairview. You responded to the call of an unresponsive male in the snow. That was early morning hours of January 29th. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Once you were there, Mr. O'Keefe had been placed on a gurney and moved to the ambulance. You were instructed to go get information about the victim.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've described in a video the basic scene where you claim that this statement was made by my client. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was a situation in which you're standing there. Read is standing there— Miss Read was on the right. Miss McCabe was on the left, and then there was an officer kind of diagonal across from me.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Depicted in that photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I recognize me in it. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And when is that approximately? Does that approximate what you're describing? Is that the time in which you're standing there? I'm guessing in the yellow jacket? This— Read to your right, McCabe to your left, and there's an officer standing directly across from you.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Is this the time at which you indicate that that statement was made— around this time? I'd like to have that marked as next in order.
JUDGE CANNONE: Any objection, Mr. Brennan?
MR. BRENNAN: None.
JUDGE CANNONE: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: May I retrieve?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember the name of the officer that was standing directly across from you when you indicate that this statement was made?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I didn't know, but I am aware now.
MR. JACKSON: And, by the way, that officer is— what?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Officer Saraf.
MR. JACKSON: You're describing a situation in which you're standing there. Miss Read is next to you. Within earshot is a uniformed police officer. And she said, "I hit him. I hit him." Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So it's: "I hit him. I hit him." Miss McCabe interjected, and then she said, "I hit him." And then the officer said, "You what?" And then she said, "I hit him." And he said, "Go get Goode down here." Okay. So, is that three times or four times that you indicate she said "I hit him"?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Four times.
MR. JACKSON: And, according to you, you indicate that at the time that she made these statements, she was hysterical and somewhat out of control. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She was upset. I would say hysterical. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Did you describe her last year as obviously upset, overly frantic, and almost hysterical?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, I believe it. I remember that.
MR. JACKSON: If we can play exhibit 4. Starting at— [unintelligible] starting at 9:15.
PARENTHETICAL: [video plays]
MR. JACKSON: It's about 9:46. Can you stop it? Did you see the two people enter from screen right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Who is that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That would be myself and Miss Read.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. This is the first point at which you and Miss Read begin to converge with the other two individuals, Miss McCabe and the officer. Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We— I had started trying to gather the information prior to this, and then she was moving around, so I had kind of was following her, asking the questions, and then we eventually came— yeah— here to this point and came to a stop.
MR. JACKSON: So— my answer— sorry, your answer is yes. This is the point at which you converged with Miss McCabe and the officer.
PARENTHETICAL: [video plays]
MR. JACKSON: Pause it. You see yourself sort of in the foreground in the bright jacket.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Let's go ahead and play.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: And this Read just on the other side of it.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Standing there.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Okay. Okay. McLaughlin, during that video— that's the time in which you say— or you claimed last year— that she was, in your words, obviously upset, overly frantic, and almost hysterical. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did she look almost hysterical in that video?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: In that video, you can't— that could not explain what that scene was like.
MR. JACKSON: Did she look overly frantic in that video?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She was frantic throughout the whole scene. I think that was me describing the entire scene.
MR. JACKSON: I see. Yeah. So, she did not look overly frantic in that video.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She was very— she was upset, for sure.
MR. JACKSON: Did she look overly frantic and almost hysterical in that video?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know that you could really see from that video. You can't hear anything, so it's hard to—
MR. JACKSON: Was she running around?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She had been.
MR. JACKSON: I didn't ask you if she had been.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. There were a lot of things that happened.
MR. JACKSON: When she's standing there with you, was she running around?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. She had just stopped running around.
MR. JACKSON: Was she gesticulating?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Do you know what that means?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't.
MR. JACKSON: Was she using her arms and going crazy with her hands and arms and running in circles?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She had been. But like I said, she had been.
MR. JACKSON: I'm not asking you about what happened before we got to that video. Right. I'm asking you about the video in which you described her previously as being overly frantic and almost hysterical. Did she look like she was gesticulating and moving her arms and spinning in circles?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not in that video.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you. And according to you, that's the point at which Miss McCabe said, "I think you need to calm down." Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And according to you, that's the point at which Miss McCabe said, "You're hysterical." Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Just so I'm clear, who in that video— Miss Read or Miss McCabe— appeared to be doing most of the talking?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: You cannot see from that video who— I don't know— appeared to be gesticulating with her arms.
MR. JACKSON: My client or Miss McCabe?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think Miss McCabe was doing that, saying, "You need to calm down. You're hysterical."
MR. JACKSON: The whole time she's just gesticulating. She's saying, "Calm down, Karen. You're being hysterical. Calm down. You're hysterical." And just repeating that.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She was— she was trying to get her to stop and to calm down because of the statement she was making.
MR. JACKSON: I see. And she was trying to get her to stop. Calm down. I see. Okay. So, during that entire video— that was probably 40, 50 seconds or so, maybe a minute— that's what you're saying. Now that Miss McCabe was gesticulating and saying, "Calm down, Karen. You need to stop making statements. Calm down." Right. That's what she was doing.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Well, you'll agree that Miss Read was standing relatively quietly to your right, not saying much of anything.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. What she had just said— she seemed upset when she said that. And what she said was— obviously Miss McCabe was trying to convince her— "You need to calm down. Stop saying that."— right in front of a police officer who never said he heard [unintelligible].
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: You were standing 18 inches to 2 feet from Officer Saraf. Correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know exactly.
MR. JACKSON: Well, give me an idea.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: 2, 3 feet, whatever. He was standing near me.
MR. JACKSON: And he was standing even closer to my client, wasn't he?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At this moment, when you claim to have heard "I hit him" repeated four times, where was firefighter Flatley? I'm sorry— where was firefighter Flatley and firefighter Nuttall?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: In the ambulance with the doors closed.
MR. JACKSON: Yes, in the ambulance. This is my ignorance. I'm assuming the engine was running.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: I'm assuming that there's some sort of a heating system inside that ambulance to keep it nice and warm for patients.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, that was running as well. Yes. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: So, that door closed— those doors closed. How many feet away, by the way, from where we're looking? How many feet away? How many yards away?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know. We were fairly close to the ambulance.
MR. JACKSON: Further than you and I are from each other right now, or closer?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I think closer.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. How about now?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm not sure. The ambulance was behind us. I'm not sure how close we were.
MR. JACKSON: Right. At least a few yards.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And those doors are pretty thick, secure metal doors that lock. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Obviously, when you saw them — I mean, I know you don't know what was happening inside the ambulance — but when you saw them, firefighter Nuttall and firefighter Flatley were engaged in life-saving measures with Mr. O'Keefe, one doing the bag, one doing chest compressions as they entered into the ambulance, which you did see, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Those doors closed. Would you presume from your experience that those life-saving measures and their focus was on John O'Keefe, that continued?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You testified that you went back to the ambulance at some point and you told firefighter Flatley and firefighter Nuttall what you claimed to have heard. You told this jury. Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I went back to the ambulance after that and I told them what was said and gave them the demographic information that I got.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So, in other words, firefighter Flatley and firefighter Nuttall heard it from you. You didn't say it to somebody else and they reported it to those two. They heard it directly from you. Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I went back and I said — I gave the demographics and I said she's saying I hit him.
MR. JACKSON: Right. So, in other words, they heard that from you.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I gave them—
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Is that yes or no?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Did she answer the question? Next question.
MR. JACKSON: I want to ask you a couple of questions about your relationship with Caitlin Albert. You were asked at a hearing about a year ago back in May last year, May 3rd as a matter of fact, 2024, about that relationship. Do you remember what your answer was?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, not specifically.
MR. JACKSON: You remember saying, in response to the question, "Who's Caitlin Albert?" — asked by me.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't remember specifically what I said.
MR. JACKSON: Did you say I went to high school with someone named Caitlin Albert? Can I have the page number and line, please? May 3rd, transcript 10-24, lines 2 and 3. Did you say I went to high school with someone named Caitlin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I believe so.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. [unintelligible] Thank you, Brennan. Thank you. Yes. Let me wait for you to — You see that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: May I? Yes. Did that refresh your recollection as to what your answer was to the question about Caitlin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you say, quote, "I went to high school with somebody named Caitlin Albert"?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McLaughlin, that was not a full and accurate statement of your relationship with Caitlin Albert. Correct.
MR. LALLY: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Was that — Was that accurate? I mean, that's a fact. That's okay. Next question.
MR. LALLY: I'd like to be heard.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Go ahead.
MR. JACKSON: In answer to that question, the open-ended question, "Who is Caitlin Albert?" — you didn't offer up in that first initial response, you didn't offer up, you didn't say we're friends, did you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We're not.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't say that we are in the same friend group, did you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't say we've been friends since high school.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You said "I went to high school with someone named Caitlin Albert." Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Almost as if you just saw her name in a yearbook.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I don't agree with that.
MR. JACKSON: That's not true, is it? I mean, that wouldn't be true. Correct. Because you did know Caitlin Albert.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That is true. And you asked me if I knew her and I said yes. And you asked me if I'm friends with her and I said I wouldn't say friends.
MR. JACKSON: You wouldn't say friends, right? Even as you sit here today, you would not say that you're friends with Caitlin Albert.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You wouldn't say that you've been friends for years.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We've known each other for years.
MR. JACKSON: That wasn't my question.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We've known each other for years, but we are not close friends. We don't have a relationship one-on-one. It's just group settings.
MR. JACKSON: You grew up in the same town together, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We did.
MR. JACKSON: Went to the same middle school together.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Went to the same high school together.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Socialized with her.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Taken day trips with her and others.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've taken beach trips with her and others.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Taken Fourth of July weekend getaways with her and others.
MR. JACKSON: But one of your best friends named Michaela actually lived with Caitlin Albert at college, didn't she?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You visited your best friend at that residence where she lived with Caitlin Albert on more than one occasion, didn't you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, occasionally I would go to visit the friends that I had there.
MR. JACKSON: You would even spend the night in the apartment building, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Maybe a handful of times. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've taken photographs with Caitlin Albert, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm in pictures with her. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've been to baby showers with Caitlin Albert over the years.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I have attended a baby shower with her. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Celebrations with her over the years, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah, we socialize — like I said, group settings, social events. I will see her.
MR. JACKSON: Your honor, may I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Briefly. Just one second. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, your honor. May I approach briefly?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I stay by the witness stand just so I can take the photographs back. Can you — first of all, take a quick glance through that series of pages and tell me if you recognize — what's—
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: How do you recognize generally? How do you recognize those documents? What are they?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Objection sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Are those photographs?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, the photographs.
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question.
MR. JACKSON: Who is depicted in the first photograph?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Myself.
MR. JACKSON: Does every one of those photographs include you?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Does every one of those photographs include Caitlin Albert?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection. I'd like a curative instruction.
MR. JACKSON: The reality is, Miss McLaughlin, your relationship with Caitlin Albert goes back not just weeks or months or years. It goes back a decade or more. Matter of fact, more than—
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. I mean, I grew up — we live in the same town, so we went through all the same school systems and everything.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Can I have this, please. The reality is you did more with Caitlin Albert than simply go to the same school system. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: One of these photographs has you on vacation with Albert drinking. Correct.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: You've been photographed with Miss Albert on many occasions at many celebrations with your girlfriends. Correct.
MR. LALLY: Like a sidebar, please.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to allow that.
MR. JACKSON: Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Been photographed on occasions with her. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That wasn't my question. Go ahead. My question was you've been photographed on many occasions and many celebrations with Caitlin Albert and your girlfriends, that group of girls that we just looked at.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: And those include, as we went over just a second ago, Fourth of July vacations. Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm not sure the dates on them.
MR. JACKSON: I didn't ask you about the dates. I don't know the dates either.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I don't know that that beach was a Fourth of July celebration. I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: Do you see a beach photo with American flags in the background?
MR. LALLY: I'm objecting.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: So, you've had — those photographs represent at least some of the celebrations that you have had with Caitlin Albert and others in your friend group. Correct.
MR. LALLY: I'm objecting.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: You've gone on overnight vacations with Caitlin Albert. Isn't that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: There was one that I can remember, one overnight that I can remember with a big group of people.
MR. JACKSON: Where was that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That was in Maine.
MR. JACKSON: It was in Bethel, Maine, wasn't it?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Could have been. It was in Maine.
MR. JACKSON: Have you been to more than one vacation in Maine with Caitlin?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I don't know. That's the name of the town. I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: You've indicated that you've attended baby showers with Caitlin Albert, correct?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I was invited to a baby shower, not Caitlin Albert's, but she was also invited to the baby shower.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And the two of you posed for a photograph together. Correct.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: We posed around the girl that was having the baby.
MR. JACKSON: Right. You and who else?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: A bunch of other girls, her friends.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Was one of them Caitlin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She was in the photo. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: She's standing right next to you in the photo.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She could have been.
JUDGE CANNONE: Is that in there? Next question.
MR. BRENNAN: Mr. Jackson, can I approach you?
MR. JACKSON: No. Next question. You just looked at a photograph.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I just glanced through them.
JUDGE CANNONE: The objection is sustained.
MR. JACKSON: The reality is, Miss McLaughlin, your relationship with Caitlin Albert is far more than simply somebody that you went to high school with. Isn't that true?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I described what it is.
MR. JACKSON: Do you stand by ...your testimony that Caitlin Albert is quote, "Somebody I went to high — I'm sorry, I went to high school with somebody by that name."
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I said that and I described the relationship numerous times throughout that testimony to clarify it.
MR. JACKSON: And you clarified it. You clarified it under questioning by me.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Mr. Lally, he asked follow-ups. And in fact, you were shown some of these photographs last year, too.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: The reason you clarified it is because you were confronted with photos of yourself last year.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Can you repeat the question?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. The reason you clarified — as you just testified — your relationship is because you were confronted with photographs of you and Caitlin Albert last year.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. I just answered the questions that you had.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And you were shown photographs last year.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I was. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There's also another member of the Albert family that you've spoken to about this case. Isn't that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: January 30th, 2022. You were contacted by a member of the Canton Police Department to set up an interview. Weren't you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I was not.
MR. JACKSON: You remember being contacted by anybody to set up an interview with Michael Proctor?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: The state police called me and I met with two state troopers. I don't know which one of the troopers called me to set up the interview.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that it was actually a Canton police officer who coordinated that interview with you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I have no knowledge of that at all.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that the Canton police officer who set up the interview with Massachusetts State Police and coordinated that interview was a detective named Kevin? Do you remember that?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I have no knowledge of that.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that Brian Albert has a brother named Kevin Albert on the police department?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I know that now.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't that who coordinated your interview with Michael Proctor?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I've never spoken to Kevin Albert ever. You can't remember who it was that set up the meeting. How can you say with such specificity? Because the state police called me. The state police called me. It was a state trooper.
MR. JACKSON: Can you wait till I'm finished? Hold on one second.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, sorry.
MR. JACKSON: If you can't remember who it was that called you specifically, how can you say with such specificity that you've never spoken to Kevin Albert?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Because I have only ever talked about this case with a state police trooper. So there were two of them there when I went for the interview. I don't remember which one called me, but I've never been contacted by anyone in the Canton police about an interview or about the case. So, I know it's not a Canton officer. I just don't know which state trooper it was that called me.
MR. JACKSON: Did you talk to Mr. Brennan about this issue when you all met?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I did not. This issue never came up. No.
MR. JACKSON: About Kevin Albert or the Massachusetts State Police or your first interview?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You remember testifying about this last year?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I remember you asking me about who coordinated the interview.
MR. JACKSON: And now as you sit here, you're saying it was absolutely 100% Massachusetts State Police that coordinated that interview.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It was only ever — I only ever spoke to the state police about that interview. I wasn't contacted by anyone else to go in for that interview.
MR. JACKSON: Are you saying that you now have a specific memory of how that interview was set up and that it was by a Massachusetts State Police officer?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: My only memory is —
MR. JACKSON: Do you have a memory or — answer the question, please.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't really get the question. I don't understand the question.
MR. JACKSON: Ask it again. Sure. Are you saying as you sit here now that you have a memory of how that interview was set up and it was by a Massachusetts state police officer?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I always had a memory that it was a state police officer. I don't know which one. That's why I said I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that last year you were asked that very similar question? This is page 10-56, lines 10 through 15. "Do you recall being contacted by a completely different officer to say, 'Hey, Trooper Proctor wants to talk to you. Come on in, Canton PD wants to have an interview.'" "Answer: I don't remember exactly how the interview was set up." Remember that, right? So, as you sit here, you now have a specific memory that that interview was set up by Massachusetts officers.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's the only memory I have of it. And when I said I don't know, you said somebody other than Proctor, and I didn't know if you were referring to the other state trooper that was there, because I didn't remember specifically who called me to come in for the interview. But I've never spoken to anybody in the Canton police about that interview or the setup.
MR. JACKSON: In fact, Kevin Albert is Brian Albert's brother.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I'm aware of that.
MR. JACKSON: Now you're aware that Kevin Albert is Caitlin Albert's uncle?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I guess so.
MR. JACKSON: How many conversations did you have with anybody before you actually sat down with Michael Proctor? Either in anticipation of setting up the interview or otherwise.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: None. I think once I got the call, I just called my chief that they're asking me to come in. And that was that.
MR. JACKSON: And you got the call from whom?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't know which state trooper called me.
MR. JACKSON: But as you sit here now, you're very specific in your memory. It was a state trooper.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I only ever met with state troopers. And no one from the Canton police ever contacted me about an interview, setting up an interview.
MR. JACKSON: During your interview with Michael Proctor, did you disclose to Trooper Proctor that you had a pre-existing relationship with any member of the Albert family?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did Michael Proctor disclose to you during that interview that he had any kind of relationship with the family?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: I want to talk to you for a second about your role. You did in fact arrive at 34 Fairview Road... How long had you been a firefighter paramedic at that time? As of January 29th of 2022.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Probably about five years.
MR. JACKSON: You said that you'd responded to hundreds — you believe it's possibly hundreds of calls. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Possibly.
MR. JACKSON: How many were homicides or potential homicides?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: None that I know of.
MR. JACKSON: So, this would be the first one on January 29th, 2022, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And obviously you had never responded to a homicide before. You certainly had never responded to a homicide of a police officer before.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: I think you indicated as much on direct examination that you were not and are not now a trained detective. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
MR. JACKSON: You never conducted any sort of a formal investigation for a criminal investigation, had you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: You hadn't been trained. You had no advanced training on how to preserve or interpret statements or memorialize statements for evidentiary purposes?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Or for the use in trial, things of that nature?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: In fact, your role that morning was just to provide medical assistance and pretty much nothing else. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you'll agree that it was a somewhat chaotic scene, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Lots of first responders on scene, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Everybody working furiously — or at least people working furiously — to provide life-saving measures to John. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: People were talking over each other. There was a cacophony of engine sounds and noises, coming from people talking and trying to speak over the wind and the howling — the driving snow and wind that was coming down. Snow that was coming down. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You hear people in the background, in the foreground, people talking over each other.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Emotions — your emotions, everybody else's emotions — were on high alert. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So you were trying to do your job under pretty intense pressure and in a very limited context.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't have a tape recorder with you when you were asking my client any questions, did you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, of course not.
MR. JACKSON: No audio recording of that conversation you claim took place between you and Miss Read. Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Not that I know of.
MR. JACKSON: And you've already indicated that you didn't even follow up with a single question when she responded in the way that you've indicated she responded.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The words you claimed you heard were, "I hit him." Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: It's your experience that people under pressure — people under stress — because you go to high stress situations all the time as a firefighter paramedic.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: People in those kind of situations speak in broken sentences or rhetorical questions.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Not uncommon.
MR. JACKSON: People react differently at different scenes.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: But you certainly wouldn't say that that's uncommon — "Oh my god, what happened? What happened?" Things of that nature.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you hear my client ask a question of confusion, or a series of questions of confusion? "Could I have hit him? Did I hit him?"
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I did not hear that.
MR. JACKSON: You never heard her say anything close to "Did I hit him?" or "Could I have hit him?"
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I did not.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McLaughlin, where are your notes regarding this statement?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't have any.
MR. JACKSON: Where'd they go?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: It's not — in the role that I was in, I would — I'm not in a position to write a report on this type of call. It would be the lead paramedic or the officer on scene.
MR. JACKSON: So, you didn't write anything down? You didn't have any opportunity to write down?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I didn't.
MR. JACKSON: We're just going by your memory.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: To court tech: Play Exhibit 4 starting at runtime 8:50.
PARENTHETICAL: [Video plays]
MR. JACKSON: Pause it. What are you looking down at?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Also, just to orient us, can you tell me where you are in that video?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I might be in the middle there, although I didn't get a good look. The yellow and the red.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Okay. I'd like you to pay special attention to your right and your left hands as this video plays. Can we go ahead and play it?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, I see what you're saying. Um, yeah, I would write like stuff on my glove. That's something I'll do as I'm getting the information. Was that your question about notes?
MR. JACKSON: So, you were taking notes.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's just me jotting down the demographics.
MR. JACKSON: Let's keep playing. Pause. Is this still the part of the interaction where my client is overly frantic and almost hysterical?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's the point where your client started to make the statements.
MR. JACKSON: Was she overly frantic and almost hysterical?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: She was distraught.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Overly frantic and almost hysterical. We're using different words. I'm asking you about your words. Does this describe her as overly frantic and almost hysterical?
MR. JACKSON: So, you'll agree that she doesn't look overly frantic or hysterical.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Again, hard to say from a video, but —
MR. JACKSON: And according to you — well, actually, Miss McLaughlin, it's easiest to say from a video, isn't it? It's a video.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. I mean, she's kind of — she's not totally in view. And I mean, she wasn't standing there calmly, I guess. She looks hysterical, too. She was upset. She was very upset.
MR. JACKSON: Hysterical.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I might say hysterical. She was extremely upset.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And this is the point which Miss [unintelligible] is saying, "Calm down. You're being hysterical."
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, let's go ahead and play it. Pause it. So, you indicated that this is the point at which — and we can leave the lights down for a second and we'll play it again — this is the point at which you said my client had just said, "I hit him. I hit him." basically confessing having hit John O'Keefe.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Those are the statements she'd made.
MR. JACKSON: And Officer Saraf is standing right there.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You see any reaction from him right there?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I know he turned and told somebody to go get the sergeant. I don't know if that already played. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Did you see any reaction from him?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: He responded, "You what?" and she repeated it again and then he told someone to get the sergeant. I know that's what your statement is. I know that's your testimony. I'm asking about the video.
MR. JACKSON: Do you see him reacting right here?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: You'd have to play it again. I wasn't looking at that part.
MR. JACKSON: Do you see him handcuff my client?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, no.
MR. JACKSON: You see him call anybody over to handcuff my client?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: He turned to signal to get Goode down here — is that what you —?
MR. JACKSON: So, they handcuffed her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No. No.
MR. JACKSON: No. They didn't handcuff her?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No.
MR. JACKSON: Even though she just confessed in front of a police officer, according to you.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: That's what she said. I hit him. I hit him. It's my fault. I did it. It's my —
MR. JACKSON: That's a confession, correct? She said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." And Officer Saraf just stands there and my client walks away.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. You'd have to talk to Officer Saraf about that.
MR. JACKSON: Oh, we have.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: You should, Mr. —
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So, let's move on. Mr. Jackson, I'm not rushing you, but how much longer do you think you'll be?
MR. JACKSON: Not long. I can wrap it in a couple minutes.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Toward the end of this video.
JUDGE CANNONE: Are you playing it again or should we put the lights on?
MR. JACKSON: If we can play it again.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Continue.
MR. JACKSON: Pause it. You appear to be writing something down.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, yeah, I could be.
MR. JACKSON: And according to you, you're writing on your glove.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What kind of glove?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, just a regular latex glove that we use on the ambulance.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't have a notepad?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, I probably did. Sometimes it's easier to just write it down on your glove.
MR. JACKSON: Did you write "I hit him" on your —
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: Still appear to be writing something down. Looking down at your glove.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I may be looking at it.
MR. JACKSON: Pause it. Is this also an example of my client being overly hysterical and frantic?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, I wasn't paying attention to her.
MR. JACKSON: You can have lights up. Whatever it was that you were talking to Miss Read about, it was important enough that you had a pen out. You were writing things down.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Well, I was still finishing writing down some of the other stuff.
MR. JACKSON: It was important enough.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: [unintelligible]
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. I wrote down things — some of the things that were said. Some of the things that were important.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. For instance, you'd write down John O'Keefe. That's his name, right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
MR. JACKSON: You might write down a circle with a slash through it. Allergies. No allergies.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right. Right.
MR. JACKSON: You might write down 46 for his age.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Right.
MR. JACKSON: You might write down how he was injured, hit by a car.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. I did not know — I didn't know what those statements meant.
MR. JACKSON: You might write down three little syllables that were just told to you. "I hit him." Especially if it had been repeated four times, as you —
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Yeah. I had that in my head and I was going to go tell them that.
MR. JACKSON: And you had a pen right in your right hand.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. Yeah. I wasn't going to write that statement down on the glove. I remembered that and I went back to the ambulance and told them.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't memorialize that statement on any note that we have.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't memorialize that statement on any glove that you were wearing.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. No.
MR. JACKSON: Whatever you wrote down on that glove, where is that now?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I don't have it obviously.
MR. JACKSON: I don't know how obvious it is. What do you do with it?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Um, you just scratch everything out and you throw out the glove.
MR. JACKSON: Threw it away.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Mhm. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Is that right?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Mhm. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So, we don't know what was actually on or not on that glove, do we?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: I wasn't going to — I didn't write those words down on that glove.
MR. JACKSON: As we stand here, we don't know what was or wasn't on that.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Name, date of birth, no meds, no history, no allergies. And then I wasn't writing that statement down on the glove. I went back to the ambulance and just reported it.
MR. JACKSON: And importantly, it was important enough, as you say, to go back and report the statement, but not important enough to write it down with that pen very conveniently in your right hand.
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: Correct. It's not about importance. It was — I was relaying that information to the ambulance verbally. I didn't need to write it down.
MR. JACKSON: And you in fact didn't write it down, did you?
MS. MCLAUGHLIN: No, I didn't make a report about it.
MR. JACKSON: And you're also aware that not a single police officer at the scene wrote that down either.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: That's all I have.