Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveJennifer McCabe - Cross (Part 1)
1,252 linesMR. JACKSON: Good morning, Miss McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: Good morning.
MR. JACKSON: When was the last time you spoke with Kerry Roberts before your testimony today?
MS. MCCABE: She called me last night.
MR. JACKSON: What did you all discuss?
MS. MCCABE: She asked if my daughters were going to be staying home from school today because her daughter would possibly join them.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss anything having to do with your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Not my testimony. No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss anything in that conversation about her prior testimony?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Are you aware that she testified last week?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss anything, after she testified, with her about her testimony?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you — You know — through her testimony — that you had a conversation with her the morning that she testified?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss what you anticipated to be her testimony, before — in that conversation, before she testified?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Have you and Miss Roberts ever discussed anything about either one of your testimonies — either in the last proceeding or in anticipation of this proceeding?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: So for the entirety of the last year — even though you both went through a proceeding last year where you both testified under oath and it was highly, highly publicized — neither one of you, your good friend Kerry Roberts and you, have ever discussed either of your testimonies between that time and this time?
MS. MCCABE: No. We've discussed the case and we've discussed what happened that moment — the moments of the morning — but we have not discussed testimony.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So let's break that down for a second. I'm talking about — because the timing matters. I'm just asking, at this point, if you'll bear with me — just the year from last year at a different proceeding to this year — you have discussed this case.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: With Miss Roberts many times.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you've discussed the specifics of her memory, which would be reflected in her testimony.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. We talked about what happened that morning.
MR. JACKSON: So you were talking about what she remembers happening that morning.
MS. MCCABE: Correct — no, what happened that morning.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So not to put too fine a point on it, Miss McCabe — if you ask me what I had for dinner last night, it's my memory of what I had for dinner last night. Would you agree with that?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you talk about her perception of what happened that morning during the last year?
MS. MCCABE: We've talked about what has happened. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So I'm trying to break it down. Between you and Miss Roberts, you've discussed her perceptions and her memory of what happened, as well as separate and apart from your memory and your perceptions.
MR. JACKSON: So there have been circumstances in which you and Miss Roberts have compared -- by definition -- what she remembers versus what you remember. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't say compare.
MR. JACKSON: Well, what would you say in terms of what you've discussed and why?
MS. MCCABE: I would say that we've both talked about what we've discussed, but it wasn't like a comparison. We weren't comparing anything.
MR. JACKSON: You've talked about what you discussed. What does that mean? Talked about your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: No, we've -- I, we've discussed what happened in that moment, right? And in those moments, so you know, oh, when I got a phone call -- and that's my story -- you know, that's my -- I got a phone call in the morning. And then Kerry can say, yeah, I got a phone call as well.
MR. JACKSON: As you said, that's your story. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Not my story. It's the truth.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So, for instance, when you got a phone call at 4:53 in the morning, Kerry Roberts wasn't there. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: But you've discussed that with her. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you've told her what your perception of -- your memory of that phone call was, even though she was not recipient to and did not witness that phone call. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I've told her about the phone call. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: As well as many other details that she was not privy to -- personally. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Conversations that you've had. For instance, conversations that you claim you've had with Miss Read. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you've told her what your perception is of those conversations, or your memory was or is of those conversations with Miss Read. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Which conversations with Miss Read?
MR. JACKSON: Any conversations. Just anything that she wasn't privy to. You've discussed that with her.
MS. MCCABE: Some things. Yes. Absolutely.
MR. JACKSON: And, conversely, Miss McCabe, obviously, she's also discussed certain perceptions and memories that she has about this case, the facts of this case as she recalls them, that you were not --
MS. MCCABE: Necessarily privy to. Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Things that may have taken place outside your presence. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that you've -- I'm sorry. She's talked to you about things. Now, I'm getting myself confused. Y'all have talked about things that were outside of her perception and outside of your perception, and you've shared those with each other.
MS. MCCABE: We've shared our experiences. We've become very close. We've both lived through a traumatic experience.
MR. JACKSON: How many times would you say you and Miss Roberts have discussed your individual perceptions of what you remember happening on the 28th or the 29th of January 2022? How many times?
MS. MCCABE: It would be hard to put a number on that. We -- it's hard. We are -- we're bonded. We talk about the trauma that we relive every day. Karen called us for help and we both answered the phone.
MR. JACKSON: And that bonding is the glue that holds you two together. Is that correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So that probably, by definition, is the foundation of many, many, many of your conversations. Would you agree?
MS. MCCABE: We've grown into friends where we talk about many other things besides the case.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. The movie you saw last weekend and what the kids are doing next week.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Absolutely. We talk about many different things, just like girlfriends do.
MR. JACKSON: I'm -- just concerned with and asking you about the subject matter of this case and the details and the facts of this case. You two have probably talked hundreds of times. That's fair to say.
MS. MCCABE: About our individual perceptions, our respective perceptions of this case. Correct. This happened three years ago and we've talked about it time and time again. This case has traumatized us. So, it's a huge part of our lives.
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't -- I mean, okay. Traumatized our lives. Okay.
MR. JACKSON: It would be impossible for you two to have had so many conversations about -- your respective perceptions of the details of that day without that influencing the other person. Correct. You've somehow been influenced by Miss Roberts's perceptions and her memories. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I don't think I would say influenced.
MR. JACKSON: Would you say that she's been influenced by your perceptions and your memories?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Would you say that, Miss McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: No, I wouldn't.
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question.
MR. JACKSON: How many times have you met with anybody from the DA's office -- and I'm just going to limit the time frame right now -- in anticipation of your appearance in this trial, yesterday and today?
MS. MCCABE: I'd say roughly four or five.
MR. JACKSON: Can you give me a time frame when those -- four or five meetings were?
MS. MCCABE: I don't have dates. I do remember at one point I met with Mr. Brennan. He was new to the case. So I went in and he introduced himself.
MR. JACKSON: How long ago was that? Weeks or months?
MS. MCCABE: Maybe. I can't give you a time frame. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Do you think it was last summer?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Do you think it was --
MS. MCCABE: No, it was more recent.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Wasn't in the fall of last year.
MS. MCCABE: No, it was in 2025 sometime, I believe. So, yes.
MR. JACKSON: You think it might have been February, January?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I can't give you an exact. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: All right. I want to talk about the time frames of those conversations. Then I'll ask you a little bit more -- about those conversations. So that was the first meeting that you had, was with Mr. Brennan, in anticipation of your testimony. What were the subsequent four meetings or so that you've had, with whom, and approximately what time?
MS. MCCABE: Okay. So another meeting with Mr. Brennan. Are you looking for who was there, who else was there? I mean, can I give you a general answer? I didn't write down every meeting, who was there, but generally --
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Was Mr. Lally there?
MS. MCCABE: During one or two of the meetings, he was. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Was Miss McLaughlin there?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Was there anybody else from the DA's office there?
MS. MCCABE: The officer -- or Trooper Tully was there at one. Trooper Bukhenik was there at one. The witness advocates were there, and again, give or take the particular meeting.
MR. JACKSON: Those are two meetings that you've talked about with Mr. Brennan and others. What about the third meeting?
MS. MCCABE: No, I'm sorry. I was lumping a few of them together.
MR. JACKSON: Sure, understood. I apologize. How many meetings would you have? Let's just start there. How many meetings have you had with Mr. Brennan and either staff or colleagues?
MS. MCCABE: So after the first initial meeting, I would say, again, I didn't write them down. Off the top of my head, I can think of two or three more after that.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Excuse me. First initial one. So, that's either four or five meetings with Mr. Brennan and some combination of his colleagues -- Mr. Lally, Miss McLaughlin perhaps, Mr. Nelson perhaps, the other employee of the DA's office -- and Trooper Bukhenik and Trooper Tully. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Were you asked questions -- at any of these meetings, I'm just going to lump them all together -- these five meetings. By the way, when was the most recent?
MS. MCCABE: Last night I had a Zoom call in regards -- I think the court asked them to --
MR. JACKSON: Yes. I'm going to stop you right there. I'm going to ask a different question, and if you don't mind I'm just going to lead -- you through this question. Okay. You had a conversation last night. I'm not interested in that particular conversation. That was for a very specific purpose. I'm asking you about everything leading up to, but not including, last night's conversation. Okay.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: So, let's just leave that one out. You've had -- I think you mentioned either four or five other meetings with Mr. Brennan and some combination of his colleagues and/or law enforcement.
MS. MCCABE: Yeah. And I might have in the five included that one from last night.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, fair enough. Were you asked questions in those -- we're just going to call them four meetings. Were you asked questions -- during those four meetings about your testimony at the first proceeding last year?
MS. MCCABE: I reviewed my -- I did review some of my testimony. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In what format? The paper transcript?
MS. MCCABE: No, we just watched a little bit of it.
MR. JACKSON: Did you watch your direct examination?
MS. MCCABE: A little bit. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you watch your cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: A little. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Who cross-examined you?
MS. MCCABE: You did.
MR. JACKSON: That was me. Yes. And did you watch the redirect, or any part of it?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you watch any part of any subsequent version of recross, or additional questions that you were asked?
MS. MCCABE: I don't believe so. No.
MR. JACKSON: Was there a specific area that Mr. Brennan asked you to look -- at and review in terms of your direct or your cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you watch the entirety of the direct examination and the entirety of the cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe so. No.
MR. JACKSON: Were you questioned by Mr. Brennan following your review of that direct and cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: So, he didn't ask you any questions about any of your answers?
MS. MCCABE: We would -- he showed me a dash cam and would ask me to point out, "Who's this, who's that?" -- a Waterfall video -- "Who is this, is this you, is this somebody?" Those were the type of questions that he asked me.
MR. JACKSON: What about any discussion about your -- demeanor and how you performed in the last proceeding?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: I'll ask it a different way. What about your demeanor -- I'm using probably a poor word -- how you came across, your demeanor, in the last proceeding?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss changing your demeanor in any way, shape, form, or fashion from the last proceeding to this trial? From the last proceeding to this trial, was your demeanor ever discussed?
MS. MCCABE: No. I was just told to slow down, answer the question, and answer it to the best of my memory.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any discussion about talking about your -- background — for instance, your family and your children, and being a sports mom as you talked about in your direct examination?
MS. MCCABE: No, I believe I did that in the previous one as well.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any discussion about crafting your testimony in any way, uh, to suggest a softer approach?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, was there any discussion about how to develop your testimony, uh, from beginning to end?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did Mr. Brennan ask you, uh — or let me ask it a different way. Did Mr. Brennan take you through a series of questions, for instance, as a, uh, almost a test run of questions that you might be asked either on direct examination or cross-examination?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you practice your testimony with any member of the DA's office?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Were there any, uh, sessions where you sat and were subjected to a cross-examination — like a fake cross-examination or a fake direct examination?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Anything like that?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: What were the things that stand out in your mind? You said you had at least four meetings. How long was each meeting, by the way?
MS. MCCABE: [unintelligible] Uh, the first meeting, I think, was fairly quick. Um, it was just the introduction. Um, 30 minutes — less than 30 minutes. Well, I don't want to give a time because I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. MCCABE: But it was fairly quick. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What about the second meeting?
MS. MCCABE: Uh, again, I don't know specific meetings, but I can tell you that there was a longer one where I did watch some dash cam video, um, look at different pictures, things like that.
MR. JACKSON: Um, what kind of pictures did you look at?
MS. MCCABE: Um, other than the dash cam video, uh, the pictures of John's house. The same photos that we saw today. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, how long in total would you say all of those meetings were, taking them all together?
MS. MCCABE: I really can't give you — I really can't give you an estimate. I think the first one was fairly quick. The second one — one of them was a little bit longer, maybe a couple hours.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Um, then the third one, was that also a couple hours, or was that one fairly quick?
MS. MCCABE: That was fairly quick. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So fair to say between two, three, four hours, uh, total meeting time?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I'd have to probably go back and look at the date and the time. I really can't give you a specific amount of time. I apologize.
MR. JACKSON: Did uh Trooper Tully or Trooper Bukhenik ask you any questions during the course of any of these meetings, uh, regarding the case?
MS. MCCABE: No. But we did briefly talk about how my kids were, how their kids were.
MR. JACKSON: But they didn't ask you any questions about your testimony, about your case, about your memories, about specific facts?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe so.
MR. JACKSON: Now, during any of these meetings, was anybody taking notes? Miss McLaughlin, Mr. Lally, Mr. Brennan, or any of the troopers?
MS. MCCABE: No, I don't believe so.
MR. JACKSON: So there was several hours' worth of meetings with you, and nobody — nobody scribed any notes that you saw?
MS. MCCABE: None that I saw. No.
MR. JACKSON: And these meetings were not recorded?
MS. MCCABE: I do not believe so. No.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, I'm going to ask you a series of questions about your family, uh, because I just want to make sure it's crystal clear who's who. You're married to Matt McCabe. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your sister is Nicole Albert.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Nicole is married to Brian Albert.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: It was Brian Albert's home — you were at 34 Fairview — uh, that you arrived at, where John's body was found. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The same home where that late-night gathering was on January 28th, going into the morning of the 29th. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Would you consider yourself to be close with your sister Nicole and Brian?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, very close.
MR. JACKSON: Your families are — it's not just you and Nicole. Your whole families are close. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, we have a very close family.
MR. JACKSON: How long have you known Brian Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Um, since I was in kindergarten.
MR. JACKSON: You consider him — even though he is not blood-related to you — you consider him family?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In addition to Brian and Nicole Albert, you're also very close with Chris and Julie Albert. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Just to be clear, and I'm going to do this slowly. Okay. Brian Albert's younger brother is Chris Albert. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Chris Albert is married to Julie Albert.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You consider Chris and Julie family, even though there may not be a blood relation as well. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Chris Albert is a Canton Select Board member. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Now he is. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And — the Canton, that's in Canton. Did I say "select board member"? Did I mention "Canton" select board member? It is in Canton.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Obviously it's in Canton. The Canton Police Department reports to the select board. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not aware.
MR. JACKSON: You're not aware of that — that echelon?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Um, you're aware that Brian Albert — your friend since kindergarten — is, or was, a Boston police officer.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: He had been a lifetime law enforcement officer for some 30 years before he retired recently. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Um, he's a trained first responder. Obviously.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, Brian Albert and Chris Albert have another brother named Kevin Albert. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Kevin Albert is a detective with a police department. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I believe that's his title. I'm not 100%.
MR. JACKSON: Which police department is Kevin Albert associated with?
MS. MCCABE: Canton.
MR. JACKSON: And you've grown up in Canton your whole life, you indicated.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your entire family has grown up in Canton. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you, Miss McCabe, have three sisters — Nicole, we've talked about. You also have a sister named Shelley. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Michelle.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Michelle. Mhm. And Denise, who you mentioned in your direct examination?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, Nicole is also known by a nickname. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What is Nicole's nickname within the family?
MS. MCCABE: Coco.
MR. JACKSON: Does Shel also have a nickname — well, I guess Shel is the shortened name for Michelle. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What about Denise?
MS. MCCABE: Um, she's DD.
MR. JACKSON: DD. Yeah, like D-E-E-D-E-E. Your father lives close by in a neighboring town. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, don't tell me the town, but it's relatively close to Canton?
MS. MCCABE: 20 minutes. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. His name is Tom Weekes.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There are — I'm not going to go through all of them right now because the family tree is getting large — but there are children, cousins, second cousins, nephews, aunts, uncles. There's a combination of familial relations within that set of folks that I've just talked about: Chris and Brian, and Nicole and you and Matt, and the folks that we've just talked about.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That family — that large family — celebrates holidays together, I'm guessing.
MS. MCCABE: We don't typically — you know — celebrate with Kevin and Chris, but my family does.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Along with Brian Albert and Nicole.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, of course.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, birthdays are celebrated within that family.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, go on vacations together, I'm guessing.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Gatherings like the one on the 28th.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Special events.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Spend weekends together.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You mentioned a lot of sporting events. There's a lot of sporting events that y'all go to together.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Um, so it is very, very easy to see that it's an extremely close-knit family.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And naturally you're very protective of your family, as anybody would be.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. I love my family.
MR. JACKSON: You also said — and your words — you liked Karen Read, my client, on the 28th of January 2022. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: But she very much is not family. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She certainly was not as important to you as your actual family — the Alberts, the McCabes, uh, the folks associated with them. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: On January 28th, 2022, um, members of the Albert family and the McCabe family all went to a bar together, had drinks together that night — the Waterfall, we've heard a little bit about that. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Ultimately, you went back to your sister's house for the afterparty that we've heard so much about. That was at Brian Albert's house. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've been interviewed — I think you indicated multiple times. You didn't even give a number of how many times you've been interviewed by police in this case. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your family is connected to people at Boston Police Department. We've just talked about that. Brian Albert — is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Well, Brian was a Boston police officer. Right.
MR. JACKSON: So when I say "connected," there is some familial or family or friendly connection to that police agency, Boston Police Department — it'd be Brian Albert in this case. Correct?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: There's also a connection to the Massachusetts State Police through your family. Is that right?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So, define "connection."
MR. JACKSON: Julie and Chris Albert are very, very close to you.
MS. MCCABE: I'm close with Julie and Chris. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Um, you're aware that Michael Proctor's sister Courtney is basically best friends with Julie?
MS. MCCABE: No, I'm not aware of that. She's best friends with um Julie's sister, Jillian.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So Courtney is best friends with Jillian, who is sister to Julie, who's married to Chris, who's an Albert, who's the little brother of Brian Albert.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Um, and Canton Police Department — there's also some connections there as well. Kevin Albert being the most obvious of them.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: You know, I'm going to allow it. Do you have a connection with the Canton Police Department?
MS. MCCABE: Not with the department, but with Kevin Albert.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Who's a member of the department?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, but my relationship with him —
MR. JACKSON: Understood. Um, you've indicated that you've been interviewed by law enforcement agents, uh, associated with Massachusetts State — uh, I'm sorry — with Canton Police Department. That'd be Officer Lank.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: Can I stop you for a second? Sure. We'll see you in about 20 minutes.
COURT OFFICER: Please rise for the jury. Jurors, right this way. Please bring your notebooks.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, your honor. When last we left off, we were talking a little bit about some of the familial connections that your family has with certain law enforcement agencies. We talked about Boston Police Department, obviously, Brian Albert. We talked a little bit about Massachusetts State Police and knowing friends of friends with regard to Chris and Julie.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Knowing friends of friends of Chris and Julie.
MS. MCCABE: Friends of friends of friends of Chris and Julie.
MR. JACKSON: Is that your relationship with who? I'd asked you about — I'll ask a different question. A little bit vague. Courtney Proctor is friends with Julie's sister.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Courtney obviously also knows Julie and Chris.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: And there's also a connection to Canton Police Department through Kevin Albert. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Exactly.
MR. JACKSON: Can you answer that? Is there a connection? Do you have a connection with the Canton Police Department through Kevin Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Not with the police department, but Kevin Albert is Brian Albert's brother, right?
MR. JACKSON: And Kevin works for whom?
MS. MCCABE: The Canton Police.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. So you've been interviewed many times by different law enforcement agencies, be they Massachusetts State Police, Canton Police, or otherwise, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Those interviews have not just been over the period of weeks. It's been over the period of weeks and months and even years since this occurred. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were contacted by another law enforcement agency that was not Massachusetts State Police and not Canton Police Department at one point in April of 2023. Do you remember that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I want to talk for a second about that series of — that interview. You were contacted at your residence by these members of this law enforcement agency. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Later that same day, you did sit down with those same law enforcement officers for a formal interview. On that same day that you were contacted by them, they also went into your home and actually interviewed you. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it was brief.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Those law enforcement officers identified themselves as being associated with an agency that is not Massachusetts State Police. You understood that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you understood that they were not involved with Canton Police Department either. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Completely separate agency. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: During the course of that interview, those officers informed you very specifically, Miss McCabe, that it is a crime to lie to them even during an interview. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Those law enforcement officers informed you that they were investigating certain circumstances attendant to John O'Keefe's death. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: They were very vague on what they were. I don't know what they were investigating.
MR. JACKSON: But you did understand that it was having something to do with your involvement at 34 Fairview on January 28th, 29th, 2022. As a witness or otherwise—
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained as to certain terminologies.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Let me see if I can rephrase that. Miss McCabe, you were aware of the subject matter of their interview, right? They weren't interviewing about a car you bought last year.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: They were interviewing you about basically what you're testifying to here.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. When I first spoke with them, the conversation was pretty vague.
MR. JACKSON: But the subject matter — vague or specific — was about this subject matter.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Fair enough. They first contacted you telephonically — called you on the phone. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Uh, actually they walked up to my car.
MR. JACKSON: They walked up to your car.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. That was the very first introduction. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At that point, they had not identified themselves. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: They didn't know.
MR. JACKSON: All right. And at that point, you told them that you were not Jennifer McCabe. They asked you who you were. You said, "I'm Nicole."
MS. MCCABE: I thought they were like selling something. So I was like, "Oh, no. I'm not the homeowner."
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. Fair enough. However, after you said I'm not Jennifer McCabe, you walked into the house — they then called you on the phone.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: They were still sitting outside your house.
MS. MCCABE: I don't know where they were, but they did call me.
MR. JACKSON: They were close by.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not aware.
MR. JACKSON: Well, the call came almost immediately after you walked back in the house. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure how much time had passed.
MR. JACKSON: Give me an idea.
MS. MCCABE: It wasn't an hour. No, it was soon after. I'm just not sure. I can't tell you where they were located. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: They — at that point they identified themselves as being law enforcement agents. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. When they called me.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And they told you at that time that they were not with Canton. You knew at least they were not with Canton Police Department. They were not troopers with the Massachusetts State Police. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And they told you that they would like to have an interview with you. They'd like to have a sit-down talk with you. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You told them that you would be willing to submit to an interview, but you needed about 10 minutes to get ready. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You ultimately did allow them into your home and you did sit down for a formal interview with them. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Brief, but yes.
MR. JACKSON: And it was during that formal interview inside the home that it was explained to you that it would be a crime for you to lie to them on any material issue. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: During the course of your interview, your husband Matt McCabe came home. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As these law enforcement agents continued to question you, at some point, you informed them that you did not feel comfortable with any further questioning and you suspended the interview. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Before leaving, however, those same law enforcement officers asked you if you had contacted anyone in those 10 minutes when you indicated, "I need 10 minutes to get ready." Between the time they called you and the time that they showed up and came inside your house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You told them that you had contacted your husband, Matt McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Which is why he came home, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you told them that you had called Kerry Roberts before they interviewed you. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: At that moment, I'm not 100% sure, but if you have it, I'll — it seems like something I would do, but if you have it, could you show me?
MR. JACKSON: Absolutely.
MS. MCCABE: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: I may — just a moment, your honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Counsel, sidebar, please. Yes, please.
JUDGE CANNONE: [unintelligible] Thank you for your patience. Sometimes there are matters that we need to address. And that's what happened here. So, we appreciate your patience. Mr. Jackson, could we please have Miss McCabe back in here? All right, Mr. Jackson, go right ahead.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, your honor. When last we left off, we were talking a little bit about some of the familial connections that your family has with certain law enforcement agencies. We talked about Boston Police Department, obviously, Brian Albert. We talked a little bit about Massachusetts State Police and knowing friends of friends with regard to Chris and Julie.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Knowing friends of friends of Chris and Julie.
MS. MCCABE: Friends of friends of friends of Chris and Julie. Is that your relationship with who?
MR. JACKSON: I'd asked you about — I'll ask a different question. A little bit vague. Courtney Proctor is friends with Julie's sister.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And obviously Courtney also knows Julie and Chris.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. Can you answer that? Is there a connection?
MR. JACKSON: Do you have a connection with the Canton Police Department through Kevin Albert?
MS. MCCABE: Not with the police department, but Kevin Albert is Brian Albert's brother, right?
MR. JACKSON: And Kevin works for whom?
MS. MCCABE: The Canton Police.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. So you've been interviewed many times by different law enforcement agencies, be they Massachusetts State Police, Canton Police, or otherwise, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Those interviews have not just been over the period of weeks. It's been over the period of weeks and months and even years since this occurred.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. You were contacted by another law enforcement agency that was not Massachusetts State Police and not Canton Police Department at one point in April of 2023. Do you remember that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I want to talk for a second about that series of interviews — that interview. You were contacted at your residence by these members of this law enforcement agency.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. All right. Later that same day, you did sit down with those same law enforcement officers for a formal interview. On that same day that you were contacted by them, they also went into your home and actually interviewed you.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes, it was brief.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Those law enforcement officers identified themselves as being associated with an agency that is not Massachusetts State Police. You understood that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you understood that they were not involved with Canton Police Department either.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Completely separate agency. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: During the course of that interview, those officers informed you very specifically, Miss McCabe, that it is a crime to lie to them even during an interview. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Those law enforcement officers informed you that they were investigating certain circumstances attendant to John O'Keefe's death.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. They were very vague on what they were. I don't know what they were investigating,
MR. JACKSON: But you did understand that it was having something to do with your involvement at 34 Fairview on January 28th, 29th, 2022. As a witness or otherwise —
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained as to certain terminologies.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Let me see if I can rephrase that. Miss McCabe, you were aware of the subject matter of their interview, right? They weren't interviewing about a car you bought last year.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: They were interviewing you about basically what you're testifying to here.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. When I first spoke with them, the conversation was pretty vague. But the subject matter — vague or specific — was about this subject matter.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Okay. Fair enough. They first contacted you telephonically, called you on the phone. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Uh, actually they walked up to my car.
MR. JACKSON: They walked up to your car.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. That was the very first introduction.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. At that point, they had not identified themselves.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. They didn't know.
MR. JACKSON: All right. And at that point, you told them that you were not Jennifer McCabe. They asked you who you were. You said, "I'm Nicole."
MS. MCCABE: I thought they were like selling something. So I was like, "Oh, no. I'm not the homeowner."
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. Fair enough. However, after they said sorry — after you said "I'm not Jennifer McCabe," you walked into the house — they then called you on the phone.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: They were still sitting outside your house.
MS. MCCABE: I don't know where they were, but they did call me.
MR. JACKSON: They were close by.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not aware.
MR. JACKSON: Well, the call came almost immediately after you walked back in the house.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I'm not sure how much time had passed.
MR. JACKSON: Give me an idea.
MS. MCCABE: It wasn't an hour. It was... No, it was soon after. I'm just not sure. I can't tell you where they were located. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: They told you that — at that point they identified themselves as being law enforcement agents.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. When they called me.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And they told you at that time that they were not with Canton — you knew at least they were not with Canton Police Department. They were not troopers with the Massachusetts State Police.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Okay. And they told you that they would like to have an interview with you — they'd like to have a sit-down talk with you.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. You told them that you would be willing to submit to an interview, but you needed about 10 minutes to get ready.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. You ultimately did allow them into your home and you did sit down for a formal interview with them.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes. Brief, but yes.
MR. JACKSON: And it was during that formal interview inside the home that it was explained to you that it would be a crime for you to lie to them on any material issue.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. During the course of your interview, your husband Matt McCabe came home. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As these law enforcement officers continued to question you, at some point, you informed them that you did not feel comfortable with any further questioning and you suspended the interview.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Before leaving, however, those same law enforcement officers asked you if you had contacted anyone in those 10 minutes when you indicated, "I need 10 minutes to get ready." Between the time they called you and the time that they showed up and came inside your house, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You told them that you had contacted your husband, Matt McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Which is why he came home, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you told them that you had called Kerry Roberts before they interviewed you.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. At that moment, I'm not 100% sure, but if you have it, I'll — It seems like something I would do, but if you have it, could you show me?
MR. JACKSON: Absolutely.
MS. MCCABE: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: May I have just a moment, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach briefly?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: First, I'm going to ask you, Miss McCabe, if you recognize that as being a report of that, in just general. Yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: It appears to be. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach the witness stand and stand by the witness stand for a couple of questions?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: May I have that?
MS. MCCABE: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: I want to direct your attention, if I may. And for opposing counsel, page three of four. Starting with the second to the last full paragraph going into — I'm sorry — page four, top full paragraph. Okay. If you could review those two paragraphs to yourself and then look up and let me know when you're finished. May I approach, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Did reviewing those paragraphs refresh your recollection as to what you told those officers initially from that other law enforcement agency about who you contacted in that 10-minute interval?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I told them.
MR. JACKSON: And you told them that you had contacted your husband Matt McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Kerry Roberts.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: I want to stick with that for just a quick second. One of the first calls you made after being contacted by these other law enforcement officers from a different agency — one of the first calls you made was to Kerry Roberts. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: She was the first one.
MR. JACKSON: That's what I'm asking. One of the first two calls — you called your husband, right? "Come home, there's law enforcement outside my door." I'm guessing that's what you said. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember my exact words now, but I did ask him to come home. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And Kerry Roberts. Okay.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You wanted to let Miss Roberts know that you had been contacted by certain officers from a different agency. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I was curious — I was curious if they had already been to her.
MR. JACKSON: That was my next question. You also wanted to find out — had these law enforcement officers from this different agency contacted her? Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. begins to elaborate — unintelligible
JUDGE CANNONE: Miss McCabe. Yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, sorry. I was just trying to explain.
MR. JACKSON: Is that why you contacted her — to find out if in fact they had contacted her before you? Yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you also wanted to find out what she told them, if she had been contacted by them. Correct? That was your motive in calling her.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: So you just wanted to find out had she been contacted. But if she had said yes, you weren't going to say, "And what did they say? What did they ask you?"
MS. MCCABE: Well, I can't say what I would have asked her, but I know I was calling to see if they had been there. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was your intent?
MS. MCCABE: I called to ask her if they had been there. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So that was your intent?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Your motive in calling Kerry Roberts at that moment before your interview was to ensure that your story would line up with her story, Miss McCabe. Isn't that right?
MS. MCCABE: No, that is not.
MR. JACKSON: You wanted to find out if she had talked to these particular law enforcement officers and what she had told them so that your story could somehow align, or it could inform how you responded to questions that they asked you. Isn't that true?
MS. MCCABE: That's not true. We both know what happened. We don't have to have a story. There is no story. There's what happened, and that's it.
MR. JACKSON: So if that's true, Miss McCabe, you'd have no reason to call Kerry and ask her if she had been contacted by this law enforcement agency, because it's just the truth. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: We're going through this whole experience together. We call each other about everything. That's nothing more than that.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm sorry. Let her finish her answer. Go ahead, Miss McCabe. You can finish that.
MS. MCCABE: There's nothing more than me calling and saying, "Hey, did they come to your house?" That's what we did when the media showed up, when Miss Read's private investigator showed up — we just give each other the heads up, "Hey, somebody's coming," because we're just like normal moms. We're not used to this.
MR. JACKSON: And that's helpful in making sure that the stories she tells are consistent with the stories you tell to different law enforcement agencies. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, we are not telling stories.
JUDGE CANNONE: Let her finish.
MS. MCCABE: What I said — no, we're not telling stories. We don't have to compare.
MR. JACKSON: And if in fact what you were telling them was just the truth, there'd be no reason for you to inquire about who was contacted —
MS. MCCABE: There's no inquiring. It's like when you're little and the ice cream truck was on the street next door and I'm saying, "Did the ice cream truck come?" It's really that simple.
JUDGE CANNONE: So you asked an argumentative question and she responded in kind. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: You also testified in your direct examination — staying with Miss Roberts for just a second — about a timeline that you and Miss Roberts put together. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That's another example of the two of you talking about your own perceptions and comparing and contrasting those perceptions and putting it down on paper. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: No. I — yes or no? It's a no. If I could —
JUDGE CANNONE: Explain, or no?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: I'm sure Mr. Brennan will have follow-up questions. Okay. After you gave that answer to those law enforcement officers at that separate law enforcement agency, they asked you, "Was there anyone else that you contacted in that 10-minute period before we got a chance to talk to you?" And your answer was no. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that was a lie. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: It wasn't a lie. No.
MR. JACKSON: Was it true?
MS. MCCABE: I had —
MR. JACKSON: Was it the truth or a lie?
MS. MCCABE: It wasn't a lie.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So it was the truth. You had not spoken to any other person between the time they contacted you telephonically and you said, "I need 10 minutes," and then they came in the door. During that arc of time, you didn't talk to anybody else or contact anybody else other than Matt McCabe and Kerry Roberts. Now you're testifying that was a true statement?
MS. MCCABE: I can't answer that yes or no.
MR. JACKSON: So pretty binary. Let me ask you this. In point of fact, you did talk to other people. Did you contact others in addition to Matt McCabe and Kerry Roberts? Yes or no?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So when you said no to the question, "Did you contact anyone other than Matt and Kerry?" — that would be, by definition, Miss McCabe, a lie. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, it's not a lie.
MR. JACKSON: Is there some shade of lie that I'm not aware of?
MS. MCCABE: It's the way you're asking the question. If I could explain —
MR. JACKSON: Let me ask — it will make more sense. I'm going to go over this one more time, then I'm going to move on. The agents asked you, did you contact anyone between the time we called you and set up the interview and the 10 minutes before we walked in the door? They asked you that question. Correct?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. Watch the choice of language.
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. I meant the members of that law enforcement agency contacted you.
MS. MCCABE: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: They asked you who you had contacted between the time they first telephoned you and walked in the door 10 minutes later. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Data point number one. Data point number two — you told them Matt and Kerry. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: They then asked you, "Did you contact anyone else other than Matt and Kerry?" Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you said no. Is that correct?
MS. MCCABE: At that moment, I said no. Yes. Correct. At that moment — at that moment, because they had just come in my house —
JUDGE CANNONE: Only one person can talk at a time.
MR. LALLY: She was finishing her answer. Finish her answer.
MS. MCCABE: I had said no because — I'm going to be completely honest — I was in a situation where there were two officers from a different agency who had come in, were asking me questions. They had said, "Can I come in and ask you questions?" At first I thought they were selling something. Then they identified themselves. I had just dropped my kids off at school. To be completely honest, I hadn't brushed my teeth. So I kind of made some phone calls — this is —
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Miss McCabe. After you said no — that you hadn't contacted anybody else —
MS. MCCABE: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: — those two law enforcement officers from that separate agency who had told you it was a crime to lie to them, they left. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Subsequent to that, Mr. McCabe, your husband —
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: They left you their card so you could call them if need be. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, they did.
MR. JACKSON: And you in fact did call them back. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: Without telling me the content of the conversation — did you have a conversation with Mr. McCabe?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you call them back and say, "I'm calling you back because my husband told me that I lied to you and I better clear that lie up?"
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. Jurors, remember I told you before that only answers to questions are evidence. Be mindful of that. Next.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, your honor. You ultimately called these officers back, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you explained to them that you had been untruthful with them. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I explained that I had forgotten to mention a couple of people that I had reached out to.
MR. JACKSON: You had forgotten. Is that your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You had forgotten. You remembered Matt and you remembered Kerry, but you had forgotten the others that you had just contacted maybe 30 minutes before.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There were five people that you contacted, weren't there?
MS. MCCABE: I contacted Matt —
MR. JACKSON: Let's go through them. I know four off the top of my head. Okay, let's go through them.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: You contacted your husband, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You contacted Kerry Roberts.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. You contacted Peggy O'Keefe.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Then, Miss McCabe, you contacted the district attorney's office.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. My witness advocate.
MR. JACKSON: The district attorney's office.
MS. MCCABE: My witness advocate who works for the district attorney's office.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Miss McCabe. And you also left out that you contacted Brian Albert himself, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. My brother-in-law.
MR. JACKSON: For some reason, your brother-in-law, who's the 30-year Boston police detective?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And on whose lawn John O'Keefe was found dead or dying?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: For some reason, you did not want these officers to know that you had communicated specifically with Brian Albert, the homeowner, just before you talked to them. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: No. Incorrect.
MR. JACKSON: There was some reason that was important enough for you to lie about that, even though you had been admonished that it's a crime to lie about that to those officers. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Incorrect. I didn't lie to them. I had forgotten who I had called.
MR. JACKSON: And all of a sudden you had an epiphany right after they walked out the door.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Matt said, "Who have you spoken to?"
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to allow it. It's out and you're not to go any further. Mr. Jackson —
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, I want to draw your attention to January 28th. You had gone out drinking with your family at the Waterfall Bar & Grille.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I went with my husband and met my sister.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And met the other family.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: The other family members meaning Matt McCabe, Nicole, Chris, Julie, Caitlin.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And I think you mentioned Tristin was there as well.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were later joined by Nick and Karina Kolokithas. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Ultimately, Brian Higgins showed up.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And Brian Albert showed up.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You previously indicated that Caitlin's boyfriend Tristin left early for whatever reason. He had errands to run or had to get to bed early for some reason. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: He left before us.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. So he didn't stay through the shank of the evening.
MS. MCCABE: Through the what?
MR. JACKSON: The shank of the evening. Through the course of the evening.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And ultimately at the Waterfall, John O'Keefe and Miss Read showed up as well.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see any tension at all between John O'Keefe and Karen that night, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No, I didn't.
MR. JACKSON: They appeared to be getting along.
MS. MCCABE: Yeah. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Sort of a normal couple having a nice evening out together.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Neither John nor Karen Read appeared drunk or inebriated or out of sorts.
MS. MCCABE: No, I wouldn't categorize them as drunk or inebriated — but again, I don't know what the definition of drunk is.
MR. JACKSON: Well, that's a fair statement. I'm not asking for their BAC, but they didn't appear to be stumbling around, falling all over themselves and sloppy drunk.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. No.
MR. JACKSON: Out of control? Nothing like that?
MS. MCCABE: Nope.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You did see Brian Higgins and Brian Albert at a high top table sort of together through the course of that evening.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. We were all kind of around like a long high top table. And John O'Keefe — and as you look at the — I'm going to use the perspective of the video that we've seen, that camera angle that we've seen. John O'Keefe and Miss Read were sort of further off in the corner, closer to the bar rather than to the tables.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Along with the Kolokithases — and you as a matter of fact.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. At different times everyone was kind of moving around. I spent the majority of the time that Karen and John were there speaking with Karen.
MR. JACKSON: And that was sort of over toward the bar.
MS. MCCABE: The — we weren't in the bar. We were at the table. So it was one side of the table or the other. It wasn't like far away, right? Kind of.
MR. JACKSON: I'm using the bar sort of as a landmark — I didn't mean you were sidled up to the bar, but just sort of as a landmark. You were closer to the bar than, for instance, the foreground, which would be the high top tables in the foreground.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. We were just on the other — I'm confused about this. We were just on the other side of the table.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You did see on the opposite side of that high top table — that's where Brian Albert and Brian Higgins were standing talking and communicating with each other. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. I was talking to Miss Read. I wasn't really paying attention to them.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ever see those two men get physical with one another that night?
MS. MCCABE: I did not that night. I did not see that.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever seen — in all the hours that you've sort of prepped for your testimony — have you been shown that Waterfall video from the time you got there until the time you left?
MS. MCCABE: Not the full video, but I have seen a good portion of it. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you've certainly seen the portion where Brian Albert and Brian Higgins get up from the table and sort of get physical with one another.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I would say more like play fighting. And Nick Kolokithas was a little bit like doing it with them as well.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So the physical part — all I'm asking is did they touch each other?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Yeah. I guess. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: And you described it as play fighting, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't — we could watch the video. It might explain it better than I could.
MR. JACKSON: We probably will. Okay. But right now I'm just asking about your memory. You remember them squaring off on one another?
MS. MCCABE: Play — but squaring off on one another.
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember them squaring off. Like I said, I just watched the video. I don't remember it from that night and I didn't really pay attention. That looked like — foolish — like guys just — I don't even know how to describe it.
MR. JACKSON: From your perspective, having watched the video, it appeared that they squared off on each other and sort of took a fighting stance.
MS. MCCABE: I didn't look at it that in depth, so I could not say that.
MR. JACKSON: Did you see them walk up to each other and grapple with one another like they were punching each other?
MS. MCCABE: I get that. Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: Were they grappling with one another like faking punches to each other?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know. Almost like sparring a little bit — I don't honestly know.
MR. JACKSON: But you did see —
MS. MCCABE: I saw them together. It's blurry and they're kind of — I don't know really what they're doing.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But they weren't standing there holding hands for —
MS. MCCABE: Oh god. No.
MR. JACKSON: No. They weren't on their phones.
MS. MCCABE: All right. They were engaging with each other playfully — grabbing at each other.
MR. JACKSON: Playfully grabbing at each other, play fighting.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. That's my — I'd have to watch the video to categorize it as play fighting.
MR. JACKSON: You don't have that in your head.
MS. MCCABE: No — it was a quick clip. I wasn't like focusing on Brian and Brian. I was just identifying that that was myself in the video, and there was Miss Read, and I believe Miss Read actually did some play fighting to Matt. There was — in fact to Matt. Yeah, I feel like she went like this to Matt at one point. Yeah. In the video.
MR. JACKSON: So let's talk about Brian and Brian. Beginning with Brian Albert. Those two men — very large in stature.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. They're big guys.
MR. JACKSON: Yeah. Big boys.
MS. MCCABE: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: A lot bigger than me, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: They took a fighting stance with each other and started grappling, playing, coming toward each other as if they were engaging in a fake physical altercation.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I did not see that. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You didn't even see it on the video.
MS. MCCABE: I saw them on the video grabbing at each other. I didn't see stances — but again I didn't pay much attention to it.
MR. JACKSON: And that's your best memory as you sit here today.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Ultimately you, your husband, Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, Nicole, Caitlin, everybody went over to 34 Fairview at the end of the night.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: The bar closed at — I'm guessing midnight. Okay. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I think we were wrapping up around then. I don't know what time it actually closes.
MR. JACKSON: When you left Waterfall, the people that were still there included Matt, your husband, and John O'Keefe. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You walked out with Karina Kolokithas and Karen Read.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you said to Miss Read something along the lines of, "You're coming with me."
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I said, "Why don't you come with me?"
MR. JACKSON: Okay, fair enough. You were prompting her to join you for the ride over to 34 Fairview. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You even went outside and sort of waited in the cold. There's a video. Have you seen the video of you outside? The surveillance video of you outside in the cold.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you're sort of waiting there moving from foot to foot like it's freezing out, which I'm sure it was.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In a big puffy coat of some kind, right?
MS. MCCABE: So the question was — I'm moving foot to foot in a coat?
MR. JACKSON: Yes. My question is more — did you see yourself waiting outside in the cold?
MS. MCCABE: I saw myself — I believe I was in a conversation at that point when I was standing out there with John and Karen. And that's when you were asking Karen to come with you.
MS. MCCABE: No, I had asked Karen previously when we were at the door to come with me because I didn't know how long Matt and John were going to be in the bar, because they were in there still.
MR. JACKSON: And that would have by definition brought Karen to 34 Fairview separate and apart from John O'Keefe if Karen had come with you.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Miss Read ultimately declined your invitation and did go with John. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: John ended up coming to the door so they just went together.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And finally, you walked away and went with your husband Matt over to 34 Fairview in your personal vehicle.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When you arrived at 34 Fair View, were you the first among the group that we've just talked about to arrive, or had others arrived before you?
MS. MCCABE: Um, others had arrived before me.
MR. JACKSON: When you walked in to 34 Fairview, where was everybody generally located? Give me a layout of the interior of the home — how you walked in and where everybody was located, the people that were there when you walked in from the Waterfall.
MS. MCCABE: Um, so I walked in through the front door. I took a right into the kitchen. Um, and then there were people sitting around the kitchen table — Brian Albert Jr., uh Julie Nagel, Sarah Levinson, Caitlin Albert. Uh, my sister was over more towards like the counters and the sink, and Brian Albert and Brian Higgins were — um, there's like a room right off of the kitchen, like a TV room — and they were in there, um, just talking. I think Nicole had like put up some new pictures, or maybe the son and the Marines — they might have been looking at a picture vaguely. I have a faint memory of that.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that you walked in the front door, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach briefly?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Sure.
MR. JACKSON: This is your photo. Can you just take a look at that photograph just for a second?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recognize the photograph?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What do you recognize that photograph as being?
MS. MCCABE: It's my sister's house. 34 Fairview. Yes. Sorry. 34 Fairview.
MR. JACKSON: Brian Albert's house as well.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'd like to mark this for identification.
COURT CLERK: [unintelligible] — identification. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: If I may, we do the next in order for identification.
COURT CLERK: Thank you.
JUDGE CANNONE: Go ahead. Just slow.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Um, what exhibit number is that, Mr. Woll?
MR. JACKSON: Your honor, with the court's permission, I'm going to show a different exhibit until the other issue can be resolved, with the court's permission. It's Commonwealth exhibit three. Permission to publish.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Woll, could you um highlight or enlarge the house as much as you can? Thank you. Miss McCabe, do you recognize what's depicted in this photo? I know it's a little bit of an angle.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What is that?
MS. MCCABE: That is 34 Fairview.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Um, can you — I think this laser will work. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Can you use that laser and point to the front door that you entered when you walked in the house?
MS. MCCABE: Okay. That's directly in the middle — just to the left of the flagpole, for the purposes of this photograph.
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Is there another entry door on the house that you may not be able to see, but you know the general area?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Where's that door?
MS. MCCABE: So, that would be — or see where these two windows are?
MR. JACKSON: Yes.
MS. MCCABE: The door would be kind of behind that right there. So, it's right to the left of those two windows.
MR. JACKSON: And Miss McCabe, just staying with doors for a second. Is there another door associated with the garage?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, actually, yeah, there is. Right there. Right there next to that side door.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Okay. Thank you. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. You didn't go in the side door. You went in the front door that night.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Um, you indicated that once inside the house, you were sort of in the kitchen area. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I was in the kitchen. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You weren't paying special attention to Brian Albert or Brian Higgins, what they were doing. As a matter of fact, I think they went into a different room. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: There's a room — the kitchen opens up into the TV room. So, they were in there.
MR. JACKSON: So, the only two that you recognized at this point in the night — not being sort of with everybody else — were Brian Albert and Brian Higgins, separated out in the family room, or whatever that room's called, living room.
MS. MCCABE: Yeah. If you like, just right there, you know, right where they are, just kind of right in the next room.
MR. JACKSON: When you first pulled up, did you notice any vehicles in front of Brian Albert's house?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: What vehicles did you notice? Vehicle or vehicles? Did you notice?
MS. MCCABE: Just one.
MR. JACKSON: What was that vehicle?
MS. MCCABE: Um, it was a Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: Can you describe the Jeep for us, please?
MS. MCCABE: I really can't. All I can say is that when I pulled down, the Jeep was parked on the street in front of the mailbox, and I turned into the driveway.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did the Jeep have any special features on it that you remember that you can describe?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I can recall.
MR. JACKSON: Big giant snow plow on the front?
MS. MCCABE: Again, it was dark. I just didn't really pay much attention to it — I just asked whose Jeep is that.
MR. JACKSON: And did you learn whose Jeep that was?
MS. MCCABE: I did. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Whose Jeep was it?
MS. MCCABE: Um, it was Brian Higgins's Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: And you said that it was parked in front of the mailbox. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So, as you're looking at the house, the mailbox would be closest to the driveway. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Rather than, for instance, the flagpole on the other side of the lawn.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So, if the flagpole's here, there's the lawn, and then here's the mailbox, and then the driveway's over here. Okay. Does that make sense?
MS. MCCABE: It does to me.
MR. JACKSON: Um, thank you for that. You've previously indicated that the back edge of that vehicle — Brian Higgins's Jeep — was at the side basically of the driveway, which is what you've just described. It would be blocking the mailbox, the rear end associated with the driveway entrance, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever discussed having seen that Jeep in that spot with anybody else in this case?
MS. MCCABE: Um, is that including previous testimony or —
MR. JACKSON: It is — at any time before you testified at the previous hearing, had you discussed having seen that Jeep in that spot with anybody else? For instance, your husband?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any other car on that curb line, if you will, other than the Jeep when you pulled in?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I remember.
MR. JACKSON: And Brian Higgins — if it's his Jeep, he's in the house. That Jeep's not moving.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So, it stayed where it was.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At some point, did you observe Miss Read's vehicle pull up to the driveway? I'm sorry. Pull up to the house.
MS. MCCABE: I was told there was a vehicle outside, so I went and looked.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Where was that vehicle when you looked that first time? Where was Miss Read's SUV?
MS. MCCABE: Um, when I went to the front door and looked out, it was straight ahead.
MR. JACKSON: So, that would be parallel — actually in line with the Jeep.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes. Directly in front of the Jeep. I don't know the distance, but yes, you're correct. It was in front of the Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: So, if the Jeep — it's a full-size Jeep.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I do not — I don't know what size it is.
MR. JACKSON: Certainly, the SUV is a full-size SUV.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: All right. So that would take up much of the room of the curb area in front of 34 Fairview — between the Jeep, assuming there's a snow plow, and a full-size SUV.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I'm not really sure of the whole area, but there was the Jeep and then there was the car. I just don't know the distance between them.
MR. JACKSON: You gave a description of the vehicles that were out in front of 34 Fairview in your January 29, 2022 interview with Trooper Proctor.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. He came to my house and asked me questions.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. When you gave that interview to Trooper Proctor, you indicated to him that you first observed Miss Read's vehicle parked on the street by the driveway.
MS. MCCABE: I never said by the driveway. No.
MR. JACKSON: So if that's in a report, Trooper Proctor got that fact wrong. Got that detail wrong.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: If in fact — well, let me ask it this way. What did you say to Trooper Proctor about where that vehicle was? Miss Read's vehicle?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I told him it was straight out front — straight out front of the front door.
MR. JACKSON: Sorry. Trooper Proctor wrote a report about his interview with you.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. You've seen that report in other hearings. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your interview with him was on January 29th. Do you remember the date?
MS. MCCABE: I'm sorry, I just said the date.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember the time? My mistake.
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember the exact time. I'm assuming afternoon, like after 12 — I'm not 100%.
MR. JACKSON: Sorry. You had been contacted by Trooper Proctor while you were still at 34 Fairview. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Ultimately, instead of coming from the Canton Police Department to 34 Fairview, you went home to your house.
MS. MCCABE: I — to the Country Lane address. Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: And Proctor ended up meeting you there. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And in addition to you and Matt being there, Brian Albert showed up.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I asked him to come.
MR. JACKSON: So you asked your brother-in-law to come to the interview that you were having with Trooper Proctor, formally in furtherance of his investigation surrounding the circumstances of this case. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: But Brian Albert did show up at your house.
MS. MCCABE: He did. I asked him to come. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And he was inside the house when Trooper Proctor ultimately interviewed you.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. He was in the house. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you'd spoken to Brian Albert before Trooper Proctor had interviewed you formally, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, several times — you had to have spoken to him at 34 Fairview. You've already said that, right?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, right. Yeah, we were all there on the case.
MR. JACKSON: And then obviously you spoke to him about the interview before Trooper Proctor got to your house to interview you on the 29th as well.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. We were just talking about what happened. It wasn't specifically about Trooper Proctor.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Not about Trooper Proctor. You talked to Brian Albert about the circumstances of this case before you spoke with Trooper Proctor.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I had.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember exactly what you said to Trooper Proctor about the location of the SUV in front of the house?
MS. MCCABE: I know what I said. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What exactly did you say there?
MS. MCCABE: I — I said the car was straight out front of the front door. When I was looking out the front door, it was straight ahead.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that what you actually said, Miss McCabe, is that you first observed the vehicle parked on the street by the driveway facing in the direction toward Chapman?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MR. JACKSON: Is that what you said?
MS. MCCABE: Those are not my words. No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Next question. You've already indicated that following the events of January 28th and 29th, you have spoken extensively with your family and your friends — members of your family and that your friend group — about what happened that night. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that includes Brian and Nicole Albert. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That includes Matt McCabe, your husband. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That includes Chris and Julie Albert.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Includes other people that were there that night, including Brian Higgins.
MS. MCCABE: I haven't spoken to Brian Higgins since I believe John O'Keefe's wake.
MR. JACKSON: But you did speak to him that morning at 34 Fairview. Is that correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah. Oh, yes, he was there. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, he's the one that told you to call Officer Lank back and have Officer Lank come back for the additional statement that you wanted to give Officer Lank. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: He may have suggested it. I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: So, in those discussions that you've had with all these folks, you've talked to the details about that night — being at the bar, the house, who was where, all of those things. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've talked about the timing of the night, who arrived, when people arrived at 34 Fairview, when people arrived at Waterfall Bar and Grille. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: No, those really aren't details we discuss. I mean, everybody kind of knows when they came and when they left. We talk more about, you know, living with everything that we've gone through.
MR. JACKSON: Well, what about on the morning of January 29th when everybody was still in that sort of friends and family gathering inside 34 Fairview?
MS. MCCABE: When I was there with my husband and sister and brother-in-law and, you know, then Brian's friend and Julie Albert, I was trying to piece together what had happened. They were all being supportive. They had no idea what happened. It was — we were just kind of sitting there in utter shock waiting to hear from Karen about John. It was nothing more than just us being together and trying to figure out what had happened. I had gotten a phone call from Karen to help her.
MR. JACKSON: And during that conversation — during that conversation or those — that series of conversations, you were sharing what your observations of that evening were, what your story was, how the evening started, how it ended for you. Correct. Or the morning ended for you. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: We didn't. No, I'm not correct.
MR. JACKSON: During the time that you folks were inside the house discussing this, there was no law enforcement agent or officer inside that house. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So the entire family and this friend network that we're talking about — with whom you discussed all these events — everybody was entitled to and did coordinate their statements without any separation and without any law enforcement oversight. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I was with my family, my sister, my brother-in-law. It wasn't really a big group of us as I've mentioned. Five or six people. I was in shock. I didn't know what had happened. They were just asking me what happened — questions like that — and I absolutely told them. But it was no story. There was no us being allowed to do it. That was my family. They were just there with me like that. But nobody was separated by law enforcement. Correct. I don't believe there was a reason to separate us.
MR. JACKSON: Not notwithstanding what you think was the reason — you're not a professional investigator. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not. No.
MR. JACKSON: You're not a trained investigator?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You're certainly not a homicide detective. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: None of you witnesses were ever separated, were you, that morning?
MS. MCCABE: There was no reason to separate us.
MR. JACKSON: I'm asking you if there was a reason. Okay. I'm asking you whether or not factually anybody was separated in the house, or is everybody allowed to talk amongst themselves?
MS. MCCABE: I was with my family. We didn't need to be allowed.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, let me try this again. Was anybody in that house separated? Were the witnesses separated from each other? The family who are witnesses, were they separated from each other by law enforcement?
MS. MCCABE: At that point, I don't think anyone but myself and Matt were maybe even witnesses.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I'm not asking you what your determination of who the witnesses are. I'm asking you whether the folks in that house were separated by law enforcement before you were able to have discussions about the events of January 28th and 29th. That's a yes or no question. Were you separated or not?
MS. MCCABE: At one point when Mike Lank was in the house, he had separated and talked to Nicole, then Brian, then Matt, and then he probably left and left everybody in the house together. Correct. He left us. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Nobody was taken down to the station. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, Trooper Proctor didn't even come over to 34 Fairview, the scene of the incident, to interview you. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I asked him to meet at my house because I had to go home to my children.
MR. JACKSON: And he accommodated you, didn't he?
MS. MCCABE: He did. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And he accommodated the fact that Brian Albert escorted you to the house for your interview. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Brian didn't escort me. No.
MR. JACKSON: Well, he went to your house at the same time that Trooper Proctor was there to interview you. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: He came at some point. Yes. By himself.
MR. JACKSON: Before Trooper Proctor did the interview?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if he got there before or when.
MR. JACKSON: Well, he arrived. You've testified in the past that Brian Albert came to your house alone — I don't mean you came in the same car, but he followed you over to your house before Trooper Proctor ever got there. And he was in the house while Trooper Proctor conducted his interview. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, Brian was in the house for the interview.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. You've already indicated that you have been discussing this case with certain other witnesses, not for days or weeks or months, but literally for years — most specifically Kerry Roberts. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: The case in general. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Just before Kerry Roberts testified at a grand jury proceeding in this case, you were with her, weren't you?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall what you're talking about.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember being at the grand jury?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember testifying at the grand jury?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The one back in April — April. April.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Yes. '22. Yes. Yeah, it sounds about right. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: You remember being there in an anteroom with some other folks?
MS. MCCABE: What's an anteroom?
MR. JACKSON: Anteroom. A waiting room.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Your testimony.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You remember Kerry Roberts being with you in that exact same anteroom?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that was right before her testimony. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So, in answer to my question, you two were together literally just before she testified at the grand jury, which was the first formal under-oath testimony that she ever gave. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When she testified at the grand jury, was that before or after you two had gotten together and created this timeline?
MS. MCCABE: We did the timeline right after John had passed. So she testified —
MR. JACKSON: The answer is she testified after the timeline was created. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Brian Albert and his family had a dog on January 29th, 2022, did they not?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, they did.
MR. JACKSON: What was that dog's name?
MS. MCCABE: Chloe.
MR. JACKSON: What kind of dog was Chloe?
MS. MCCABE: German Shepherd.
MR. JACKSON: Was it a — do you know if it was a purebred German Shepherd or a mix of Malinois and German Shepherd, or do you know?
MS. MCCABE: I have no idea.
MR. JACKSON: Big dog.
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, good-sized dog. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: 70 pounder.
MS. MCCABE: I don't know its weight.
MR. JACKSON: Wasn't a little munchkin dog though.
MS. MCCABE: It was a full-size German — it's a full size. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: On the morning that you described going into the house, January 29th, about 6:40 a.m. or so —
MS. MCCABE: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: — you indicated that you burst into the bedroom to wake your sister and Brian Albert. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I went into the bedroom.
MR. JACKSON: It's still dark out, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There had been relative chaos on the lawn for a number of minutes — from about 6:10 until at least 6:40 when we went in. There were still emergency vehicles with lights on and engines running and chaos, relative chaos. [unintelligible] as somebody has said, on that front lawn. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: It was more on their side lawn and down the street — kind of like all the cruisers — a lot of them were parked right in front of 34. Correct. To the side, in the side yard of 34 Fairview. Yes. On the lawn of 34 Fairview. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Where first responders were responding. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you said my client was screaming to the top of her lungs. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, she was.
MR. JACKSON: And Kerry Roberts screaming back at her.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: "Shut up. Shut the fuck up." Right.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Then at 6:40 a.m., under the cover of darkness, you walked in the front door — the unlocked front door — of Brian Albert's house. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I went into my sister's house. Correct. It wasn't Brian Albert's house. And Brian Albert — yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. You then climbed the stairs up toward the bedrooms. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You walked into the bedroom door where Brian Albert and Nicole Albert, according to you, were sleeping. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So, you would agree that you unexpectedly, in terms of their view, unexpectedly walked into their house basically in the middle of the night, middle of the morning.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that when you went through their bedroom door, you sort of burst through.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I opened the door. I don't know if I used the word burst.
MR. JACKSON: You've previously indicated that when you went through the door, it was chaotic because you were so amped up from the events. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know if I used those words.
MR. JACKSON: Would you say that you were loud or quiet?
MS. MCCABE: I — I was — I think as I explained earlier, I was like — where everything was going on around me and I was kind of like in just a state of shock and I remember thinking I don't want to startle them but I have to wake them up because obviously when I wake them up they're going to be panicked and think something terrible happened.
MR. JACKSON: Well, why didn't you want to startle them? Something terrible had happened.
MS. MCCABE: I didn't want to give them a heart attack when I woke them up.
MR. JACKSON: But you didn't walk up and just nudge them and say, "Hey, you cold — honey, can you wake up?" or something? You didn't do that.
MS. MCCABE: No, I was like, Brian, Brian, Nicole, wake up. Wake up.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Exactly. But you weren't saying it in that voice either. You were saying, "Brian, Brian, Nicole, get up." I'm not sure if it was that loud, but I definitely was — you were definitely trying to wake them up.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What was the dog's reaction?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall seeing the dog.
MR. JACKSON: So according to you, to the dog at least — if we can get in the mind of a dog — a relative stranger walks in the front door, climbs a set of stairs. The house is completely dark, walks into a bedroom door and starts — the person starts barking: "Get up. Wake up, Brian. Nicole." And you don't remember seeing or hearing a dog at all.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: As you indicated, it's not that the dog wasn't reactive. It's that you don't remember the dog even being there.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I have no memory of the dog. No.
MR. JACKSON: But you do know that that dog sleeps in Brian and Nicole's room.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. It may. I don't know for sure.
MR. JACKSON: The reason you don't remember the dog being there is because the dog wasn't there, was it?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember the dog.
MR. JACKSON: Right. So, when you walked into the house, didn't see the dog?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: When you walked up the stairs, no dog?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Walked down the hallway, no dog.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Walked into Brian and Nicole's bedroom. No dog.
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember seeing the dog.
MR. JACKSON: I realize that. Dog or no dog?
MS. MCCABE: No dog. I don't remember seeing the dog. Doesn't mean it wasn't there or it was there. I just don't remember seeing it.
MR. JACKSON: No dog came up to you and barked at you.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see or hear a dog whining or howling, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear or see a dog scratching at the door?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: There's no sign of a dog at all in Brian and Nicole Albert's house at 6:41 a.m. when you walked into that house.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Or 6:40. I don't remember seeing the dog.
MR. JACKSON: And this was a 70 lb German Shepherd.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I don't know the weight of the dog.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever heard a description given about that dog by Brian Albert? Anybody else? That that dog was not good with strangers?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Did you know — you said you're very, very dear friends and obviously dear friends with Brian Albert, relations with Nicole Albert, your sister. Are you aware that that dog was not good with strangers?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Do you know that?
MS. MCCABE: I don't. It wasn't good with other dogs is what I knew. So I could never bring my dog over there. That's all I know about the dog.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Had some aggression.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: At least with other dogs.
MS. MCCABE: Possibly. Possibly with other judges. I believe Caitlin left after us. My niece.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. At some point — we've already talked a little bit about this. You said you looked out the front door glass. Was it a window or is the whole door glass?
MS. MCCABE: The whole door was glass, I believe.
MR. JACKSON: Is it like — and pardon my ignorance — is there like a wooden door that is opened and there's a storm door that's all glass that was closed? Is that what we're dealing with?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. Yes. Yeah, that sounds about right.
MR. JACKSON: Can we take one more glance? I'm going to back up for a quick second. Can we take one more glance at that exhibit — exhibit three — of the [unintelligible]? Thank you. And can you enhance that just a little bit, please? Thank you so much. May I approach?
MS. MCCABE: The screenshot told me when Ryan Nagel pulled up. It didn't tell me when I saw.
MR. JACKSON: And what was the time when Ryan Nagel indicated that he pulled up?
MS. MCCABE: I'd have to look at the screenshot.
MR. JACKSON: 2:23 a.m.?
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar]
MS. MCCABE: 12:23 a.m.
JUDGE CANNONE: [unintelligible] if you have it and that's what it says. Absolutely.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. [unintelligible] Okay. Take a look at that transcript. [unintelligible] You can read that to yourself.
MR. BRENNAN: I'd like to be heard.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Why don't you come to counsel?
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Thank you. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look at the highlighted portion and tell me if that refreshes your recollection about anything we've been discussing.
MS. MCCABE: Could I— is the page available?
MR. JACKSON: Just a yes or no. Does that refresh your recollection about anything that we've been discussing?
MS. MCCABE: It's just what we've discussed. It doesn't really refresh.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So, it does not refresh her memory.
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question.
MR. BRENNAN: I— I don't think that's what she said.
MR. JACKSON: Is that— That's what you said.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, that's what I said.
MR. JACKSON: That was her answer. That does not refresh your recollection.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: That was her answer.
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question. Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Take a look at the bottom of that page and tell me if that refreshes your recollection about anything we were just discussing.
MS. MCCABE: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, Miss McCabe. Having seen these, does this refresh your recollection about what we were just discussing concerning that conversation regarding me asking Julie Nagel for the time?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes, it does.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And what time did that— [unintelligible] a screenshot that you asked for?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that time was what?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Do you remember the time?
MS. MCCABE: I— can I look at the paper? I was reading everything. I looked at the paper.
JUDGE CANNONE: The question is whether you remember—
MS. MCCABE: Oh, do I remember it? I don't remember the exact time, but I can read it off the paper.
MR. JACKSON: That's different than a memory. That's different.
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question.
MR. JACKSON: So, this does not refresh your recollection as to the time that was reflected on that screenshot.
MS. MCCABE: I can read the time, but in my memory— on this question, I have to do it this way.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Sorry. Does it refresh your recollection as you sit here having read this as to the time that was reflected on that screenshot?
MS. MCCABE: Sitting here today, the only reason I know there's a time is because of what's on that paper.
MR. JACKSON: But you did ask for a screenshot from Miss Nagel. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: And that screenshot said something to the effect of "outside." Is that right?
JUDGE CANNONE: What's wrong? Just that question.
MR. JACKSON: The screenshot said something about "outside." Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I believe it said— here. Yes. Or maybe— yeah, I— something similar. I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: It was a screenshot from Ryan Nagel to Julie Nagel indicating that he had arrived.
MS. MCCABE: Can you repeat the question?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. It was a screenshot of a text message from Ryan Nagel to Julie Nagel saying, "I've arrived." In other words, I've arrived at 34 Fairview. Yes?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it was, because he was intending to give her a ride home, which she had asked for.
MR. JACKSON: Is that right?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: You did see Julie Nagel go outside and approach the vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I never saw her go near the vehicle. I saw her go outside.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. Did she ultimately come back indoors?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did she come back in with anybody else?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: About what time would you estimate that to have been in the course of that evening? When she came back inside— when she walked out and then came back inside.
MS. MCCABE: Soon after she went out, she talked to her brother, she came back inside. And
MR. JACKSON: And about what time of day was that? If you know—
MS. MCCABE: And this was all happening while we were at my sister's house, right?
MR. JACKSON: Was it 12:15, 12:30, 12:45, 1:00?
MS. MCCABE: Well, according to that paper, I would have had to— not according to—
MR. JACKSON: Do you have an independent recollection— about, if not down to the minute, about what time that was?
MS. MCCABE: I wasn't looking at my watch that night, so it's very hard for me to give a time just off of my memory. I know what I've seen, but—
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. MCCABE: It's hard.
MR. JACKSON: You did see both Ryan Nagel's truck and Miss Read's SUV in front of the house at the same time. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I saw his lights
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Forgot to ask you, and I apologize. Can Pete please show the jurors where Brian and Nicole Albert's bedroom window is in that photograph?
MS. MCCABE: Sure. It's right there. Upper left window. Uppermost left window.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Yes. Thank you. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let me get back on track. You indicated that you looked out that storm door and saw Miss Read's vehicle, her SUV, directly in front of you.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was the first time you noted or clocked that SUV being there. First time. Sorry. The first time you noted the SUV. In other words, that you visually saw it. It was directly in front of you. It was not back by the mailbox.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Did you still see the Jeep parked back by the mailbox?
MS. MCCABE: I looked out the window. I saw the car. I really didn't pay attention to details of other cars. I just looked and saw her car.
MR. JACKSON: When you first looked out that window — or looked out the door — and saw the SUV, what time was that?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember off the top of my head. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Does the time 2:23 a.m. sound familiar?
MS. MCCABE: 2:23, I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: 12:23. My mistake.
MS. MCCABE: I'm — again, I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: When you looked out the door, did you see any other vehicles at that time — other than the Jeep, other than Miss Read's SUV?
MS. MCCABE: I believe I saw lights. Oh, sorry. Lights like over here, somewhere. If the Jeep's there and the car — sorry — is there. Um, okay.
MR. JACKSON: May I — can you describe for the record what you did? The gestures don't come across on the record.
MS. MCCABE: So to your left, yes. Straight out would be Miss Read's vehicle that I looked at. Um, I kind of looked at that. I remember my peripheral vision seeing lights over there to the left. Sorry.
MR. JACKSON: All right. So the way that you're describing this — and that's lights of a vehicle, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, do you know what vehicle that is?
MS. MCCABE: I do. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What vehicle is it? Describe it for the jurors, please.
MS. MCCABE: It's Ryan Nagel's.
MR. JACKSON: Ryan Nagel's what?
MS. MCCABE: Car, truck. I believe he has a truck.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So what you're describing is you looked out the window, you saw Miss Read's SUV directly in front of you. Right behind that in line was Brian Higgins' Jeep and behind that was Ryan Nagel's truck. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure where his truck lines up. I just remember seeing lights. I just quickly went, saw Miss Read's car, and went back into the room. I wasn't — I apologize — paying attention to specific details about cars.
MR. JACKSON: At some point you did become interested in exactly what time Ryan Nagel's truck arrived.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: This is after the fact. Well after the fact, months after the fact.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, you took it upon yourself to ask Julie Nagel, Ryan's sister, to send you something.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: What did you ask her to send you?
MS. MCCABE: I ran into the two of them.
MR. JACKSON: I didn't ask you who you ran into. Just what did you ask her to send you?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. A screenshot of a text message.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. A screenshot of a text message between Julie and Ryan Nagel. You knew at the time that Miss Nagel very obviously was a percipient witness in this case, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. It was very early on.
MR. JACKSON: Well, I mean, she was in the house.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: She was in the house when Miss Read's vehicle appeared.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She was in the house when you were looking at the vehicle.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She was in the house when everybody came to 34 Fairview from the Waterfall Bar & Grille.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: She was inside the house at the very time we're talking about, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: She went outside at some point to talk to her brother, outside the house, right behind the SUV that you're describing as Miss Read's SUV.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So, you knew all this when you asked her for that screenshot.
MS. MCCABE: I was trying to piece together.
MR. JACKSON: You knew all this when you asked for the screenshot. You knew what her position was in this case.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. She had no involvement. What happened outside—
JUDGE CANNONE: Let her finish her answer. Go ahead, Miss McCabe. Finish that answer.
MS. MCCABE: I didn't. What happened outside was separate from anything that happened inside.
MR. JACKSON: I'm going to ask you again. You knew all of that — that Julie Nagel was a percipient witness in this case, as was everyone else inside 34 Fairview — when you asked for that screenshot.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That is another example of you coordinating information with other in my peripheral vision on the left. But the lights are attached to what?
MS. MCCABE: The car, but it wasn't out front.
MR. JACKSON: Miss Read's vehicle was out front, right? When I say "in front of 34 Fairview," we're going to talk about the spacing in just a second. I just meant out in front of the house.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So, over to the side. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: And you're indicating that— and I want to be clear about this— as you're looking out that storm door window, going from right to left, it was Miss Read's vehicle. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Then Higgins's Jeep. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: His Jeep was in front of the mailbox.
MR. JACKSON: Then behind that, was there a space? And then Mr. Nagel's truck— or was the truck right behind the Jeep?
MS. MCCABE: That's what I can't tell you. I just remember seeing lights. I didn't look over and pay much attention to it. I was just quickly looking at Miss Read's car and then I went back and sat down.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recall testifying at a prior hearing that your perception was Miss Read's car, her SUV, the Jeep—
MS. MCCABE: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: — a space, and then Mr. Nagel's truck from right to left?
MS. MCCABE: I remember Mr. Nagel's truck over to the left in my peripheral vision. I can't give you a exact location.
MR. JACKSON: But there's no question in your mind as you sit here that Brian Higgins's Jeep was between Ryan Nagel's truck and Miss Read's SUV. You remember that very clearly, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I know that Miss Read's vehicle was here and there were lights in my peripheral vision over here. I wasn't— you know, I just was looking quickly.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So, let me ask you that question again. Okay. Assuming that the lights are attached to something— a truck— we've already established that. What you're looking at when you look out the storm door window is Miss Read's truck—
MS. MCCABE: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: — or SUV rather. So, just behind that to the left, as you're looking at it, Mr. Higgins's Jeep, correct? And behind that, Mr. Nagel's truck. You remember the Jeep being between the truck and the SUV? Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I remember looking out the window. It was dark. I remember seeing lights over to the left. That is what I remember.
MR. JACKSON: Where was the Jeep as it relates to the lights?
MS. MCCABE: I'm assuming the Jeep was still parked at the mailbox.
MR. JACKSON: You saw it.
MS. MCCABE: It's a 5,000 lb. Jeep, right? It was dark. I wasn't studying outside. It was a quick thing I did. I looked. I saw it. I went back to the table.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And I'm asking for what you saw. Let's just slow down on the "saw" part. Okay. We looked. You saw Ryan's truck. Then you saw Higgins's Jeep. Then you saw Miss Read's SUV. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I saw Miss Read's SUV parked straight out front. And in my peripheral vision, I saw lights that must have been attached to a truck, but I didn't study the lineup of cars. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: All right. So, can I have one more question?
JUDGE CANNONE: One more question.
MR. JACKSON: Where was the Jeep? Was it in front of the SUV, behind Mr. Nagel's truck, or was it between the two of them? It's a simple question.
MS. MCCABE: You're asking what I saw when I looked outside— I didn't— and I'm telling you exactly what I saw. It was dark. It was Karen's car there, and in my peripheral vision I saw lights, and then I went back to the table.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. That's the last question.
JUDGE CANNONE: We're going to break for lunch. All right, jurors. We'll take our lunch recess. If you can follow right behind the jurors.