Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveKerry Roberts - Cross
813 linesMR. JACKSON: Your honor, may I? Thank you. Good morning, Miss Roberts. How are you?
MS. ROBERTS: Good morning.
MR. JACKSON: Under questioning by Mr. Brennan, you talked about the number of times — or a number of times — that you have spoken to the DA's office, or some member of the DA's office. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about that.
MS. ROBERTS: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: How many times in total do you think you've spoken to a representative of the district attorney's office?
MS. ROBERTS: I — I don't — I don't have a number.
MR. JACKSON: Would you say it's more than a dozen?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Would you say it's more than 50?
MS. ROBERTS: Maybe around there.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Maybe less. And who are the folks, Miss Roberts, that you have spoken to at the DA's office?
MS. ROBERTS: Uh, Steve Nelson, the victim advocate. Uh, Yuri Bukhenik, who's a state police officer, and um, the DA, Michael Morrissey.
MR. JACKSON: And what was — I want to take those in order, and two of those are at the DA's office, one of those is not. Yuri Bukhenik is not at the DA's office — he's actually a Massachusetts state police officer. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let's take those in order. How many times would you say you've spoken to Mr. Nelson, just if you can give me a thumbnail?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know, maybe 30, 40.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Have you received what you would consider to be updates on the progress of the case?
MS. ROBERTS: Um, I would ask questions and he would give me very broad answers.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Were your questions ever prompted by conversations that you had with your friend, Miss McCabe?
MS. ROBERTS: Jen McCabe. Sometimes Jen would say, "Could you ask Steve this?" Because I had a rapport with Steve.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Were those conversations by text message or phone calls or both?
MS. ROBERTS: I would usually text him.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What about the conversation — or conversations — with Mr. Morrissey, the elected district attorney? What were the circumstances under which you contacted Mr. Morrissey?
MS. ROBERTS: Well, during the course of this trial, the witnesses have been harassed.
MR. JACKSON: That's not my question.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MS. ROBERTS: But I'm answering your question.
JUDGE CANNONE: Hold on. [unintelligible] I'm going to sustain the objection. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Were you phoning him? Were you meeting him? Were you texting him? That's my question — the circumstances of the communication itself.
MS. ROBERTS: I phoned the office asking for a meeting, had a meeting, and then he left a voicemail at some point and texted me and said, "I just left you a voicemail."
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Was that the extent of your conversations with Mr. Morrissey, the elected DA?
MS. ROBERTS: I had one other meeting with other witnesses.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. ROBERTS: And the DA.
MR. JACKSON: And turning to Yuri Bukhenik — what were the logistics? I'll use that word instead of circumstances. What were the logistics of you contacting Yuri Bukhenik? Was it by phone? Was it in-person meetings, text messages, or all of the above?
MS. ROBERTS: All of the above.
MR. JACKSON: How many times would you say that you've spoken with Yuri Bukhenik?
MS. ROBERTS: Spoken or communicated?
MR. JACKSON: Sorry, good point. Communicated with?
MS. ROBERTS: Probably 20.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let me ask you a different question. Have you ever met with Mr. Brennan before your testimony today?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What was the circumstance of that meeting?
MS. ROBERTS: Going over my testimony from the last trial. And sort of just asking questions on — what might come this time. Would I be cross-examined? I wasn't last time. Just sort of, you know, all the things — went through my testimony.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. When was that meeting?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know, in the last couple of weeks.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Where was the meeting?
MS. ROBERTS: At the DA's office.
MR. JACKSON: Who else was there?
MS. ROBERTS: Different times that I would meet with him — Steve Nelson would be there. One time, Brian Tully was there. Mr. Brennan's assistant. Adam Lally and Laura McLaughlin.
MR. JACKSON: Were those meetings — you said there were two meetings, or did I misunderstand you?
MS. ROBERTS: Yeah, I think there were two.
MR. JACKSON: Were those close in time to one another? You mentioned two weeks ago — were those both two weeks?
MS. ROBERTS: You said a few weeks ago, but the other meeting was just before I was going to testify.
MR. JACKSON: Meaning what? Yesterday, the day before?
MS. ROBERTS: Last week.
MR. JACKSON: Was that also at the DA's office?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, it was.
MR. JACKSON: Were you shown anything at that meeting? Videos, testimony, transcripts? Reports?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Nothing?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't think so. We went over my testimony on the screen. And then I just talked about my testimony from the last time.
MR. JACKSON: When you say you went over your testimony on screen, what do you mean?
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar — unintelligible]
MS. ROBERTS: We watched my testimony from the first trial on a TV screen.
MR. JACKSON: So, you were shown something. You were shown a video of your prior testimony.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'd like to see counsel for just a minute, please.
MR. JACKSON: Other than watching your testimony, were you shown anything else? Transcripts, videos — like videos that you may have seen today, dash cam videos, anything like that?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't think so. I don't think I was shown anything.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did you discuss other parts of your prior testimony?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What was discussed concerning your prior testimony and how it would impact how you testified today on direct examination?
MS. ROBERTS: Mr. Brennan had just asked me, "Can you just tell me what happened?" So I told him the story verbally.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did anything come up about specific instances of how you were going to testify today?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Or yesterday?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I want to talk to you a little bit, Ms. Roberts, about the video that you were shown by Mr. Brennan. It's the dash cam video of Officer Saraf. I'm not sure if you know which officer that is.
MS. ROBERTS: No, I don't.
MR. JACKSON: It's the one that you've been watching. That dash cam that shows your car in the foreground.
MS. ROBERTS: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: I'd like to ask you a couple of quick questions about your memory of that incident and then perhaps show you the video depending upon what the answer is.
MS. ROBERTS: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember when the officer first arrived, you and Miss Read specifically were at Mr. O'Keefe's body?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Where was Miss McCabe at that moment?
MS. ROBERTS: She was there too, but she was waving down the first responders because it was dark out and he couldn't see us. He had a spotlight.
MR. JACKSON: You and Miss Read were both providing some level of CPR, some level of life-saving efforts.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As was Miss McCabe. What was Miss McCabe doing?
MS. ROBERTS: When I was doing chest compressions and Karen was doing mouth-to-mouth, Jen was either on the phone with 911 or handing me baby blankets.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. ROBERTS: At some point she did take over doing chest compressions because I asked her to.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So Miss Read was focused on Mr. O'Keefe's head, face area.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You were focused on the chest.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe was at some point, at least, she had called 911 or dialed 911.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When Miss McCabe dialed 911 and was on the phone with 911, isn't it true that she was actually in a vehicle at the time?
MS. ROBERTS: That is not true. She was outside.
MR. JACKSON: She was outside. That's your memory?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Have you heard the 911 tape of that call?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You're aware that that tape was also captured by an open line on Miss Read's phone?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That open line — that phone was dropped inside the cab of an SUV. It was in the back seat, I believe.
MS. ROBERTS: Right.
MR. JACKSON: So, in order for that open line to capture the background of Miss McCabe's side of the 911 call, Miss McCabe would have had to have been either at or in the cab of the truck.
MS. ROBERTS: The back of the SUV was open. She was standing there.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. So, she was right next to or adjacent to the cab of the SUV.
MS. ROBERTS: She was in back of it with the — the back was up. I see that back hatch.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Do you remember Miss Read's statement — her initial statement to Officer Saraf when he got out of his patrol?
MS. ROBERTS: I do not.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember her saying something to the effect of, "My boyfriend, I left him. He never came home"?
MS. ROBERTS: I do not.
MR. JACKSON: Have you listened with audio to that dash cam at the moment that Officer Saraf arrives at the scene and y'all flag him down? We just watched it, right? Have you listened to it for the audio side — in other words, instead of focusing on the video?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: I'd like to ask you to do that with the court's permission. This is Exhibit 4 — it's been previously marked as Exhibit 4. With the court's permission, I'd like to play that from runtime about 3:50 and ask the witness to concentrate most closely at about 4:07, maybe 10 seconds into it. I'm going to give a little run up and then ask you to listen very closely to the audio.
MS. ROBERTS: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: With the court's permission.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, Evan. Stop. Do you recognize the video as being the same video that you just saw and looked at on direct examination?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In just a quick second, the door to the car — you're going to hear it open. I'd like to ask you to pay special attention to the audio portion and Miss Read's voice. Okay. If you can hear it, go ahead. Stop. Did you hear that last statement?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you hear a woman's voice, kind of faint?
MS. ROBERTS: I heard a voice, but I didn't make out what she was saying.
MR. JACKSON: Did it sound like she said, "My boyfriend, I dropped him off and he never came home"?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Could you hear that, Ms. Roberts?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: That's all I have for the video. We can take that down. You talked about on direct examination some of the injuries that you saw Mr. O'Keefe having suffered — both what you observed at the scene and then what you observed later at the hospital.
MS. ROBERTS: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: And you noted those injuries, correct? Say it again. You noted those injuries.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You made note of those.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Or at least some of them. You said you saw a hematoma of some sort over his right eye. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And there was some significant swelling to his right eye.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: At the scene.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Did you also notice a laceration just above his right eye, just under the eyebrow?
MS. ROBERTS: I saw it at the hospital, but I don't know if at the scene I saw it.
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. At some point, you saw that laceration to his right eye?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: Did you also see a laceration to the left side of his nose? A smaller laceration to the left
MS. ROBERTS: Side of his nose? I don't recall. I know there was blood coming from here, but I don't know if it was coming from inside his nose or from a laceration. I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: When you— you're pointing to the left side of your nostril.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And just basically just above the nostril.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Right around the nostril. There was blood coming this way.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Draining to the left side of his cheek.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You also indicated that you saw— actually I don't know if you did or not, so I don't want to put words in your mouth. I apologize. Did you see his right arm?
MS. ROBERTS: I did.
MR. JACKSON: Did it appear to you that he had some abrasions or lacerations, parallel abrasions and lacerations and punctures on his right arm?
MS. ROBERTS: They were scratches.
MR. JACKSON: Scratches. Ms. Roberts, you've previously testified that when you arrived— let me take you back, instead of jumping right into it. After you met up with Miss Read at Jen McCabe's house that morning, so this is just after 5:00 or so. The three of you arrive back at One Meadows, correct? Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: You're trailing the Lexus SUV, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: The Lexus pulls into the driveway and you pull in directly behind. Miss Read and Jennifer McCabe is driving.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You're driving your SUV.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You've previously testified that when you arrived at One Meadows at that moment, that once that SUV, the Lexus SUV had pulled in and you pulled in behind the Lexus, you got out of the Lexus— sorry— you got out of your SUV. They got out of the Lexus. And that's a point at which Karen showed you the back of her tail light and said something to the effect of, "Do you think I hit him? Do you think I hit him? Oh my god, do you think I hit him?" Do you recall that?
MS. ROBERTS: I recall saying I didn't know if it was when we were coming or going, but she did point out the tail light.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. When you previously testified under oath, your quote was, "Karen pulls in and I pull in behind her."
JUDGE CANNONE: Mr. Jackson, give us the page and line numbers.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. [unintelligible] Sure. It's the SGJ— the grand jury— page 58, lines 14 through 19, for court and counsel.
JUDGE CANNONE: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Did you testify? Quote, "Karen pulls in and I pull in behind her. When we get out and Karen is now showing us the back of the car saying, 'My tail light, do you think I hit him? Do you think I hit him? Oh my god. Do you guys think I hit him?'" End quote. Is that how you testified?
MS. ROBERTS: May I see it?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. I apologize. I've already got it up here.
MS. ROBERTS: Does it have a date on it, Mr. Jackson?
MR. JACKSON: It does. 4/26/22. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, sir. Thank you.
MS. ROBERTS: Do you have the pages after this?
MR. JACKSON: I'm sure I do because in the pages after this— my question— my question, Ms. Roberts, is: is that a quote that I just said? Is that accurate? Do you see it in the— in the—
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, it is.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: One more time. Next page. Thank you. Just for reference, I'm going to show you both pages. That's the page I asked you to look at. And then the following page as well. Please take your time.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay. reviewing document What I'm looking for is still not here, because I did say I wasn't sure if it was before or after.
JUDGE CANNONE: Miss Roberts, you do have to wait for a question.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: When you gave this testimony, you were in front of a grand jury, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: I'm not sure which one that is.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember testifying in front of a grand jury on April 26th, 2022?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. About two years ago.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Sorry, three years ago. You were under oath at the time. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Things were fresher in your mind at that time than they are now. Three and a half years later, I'm guessing.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You were asked the question to describe the circumstance when you arrived at One Meadows. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And the answer that you gave was— quote, "We pulled into the— it's a driveway. There's two cars and then two cars, then a single. So, John's car is there. Karen pulls in and I pull in behind her. When we get out and Karen is now showing us the back of the— sorry— the back of the car, saying, 'My tail light. Do you think I hit him? Do you think I hit him? Oh my god. Do you guys think I hit him?'" That was your testimony at the time.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And just to be clear, I'd like to take a look at a quick video that you may or may not have seen before. We'll find out. Your honor, I'd like to have this— actually, this has already been previously marked as exhibit 12C as in Charlie.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: And it's a short clip, so I'll play the entire clip with the court's permission.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Let's go ahead and take a look at that video. Can you pause? Do you recognize what's depicted in the video?
MS. ROBERTS: Yeah, that's when we arrived at John's house.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And who's the person with the plaid red pants?
MS. ROBERTS: That is Jen.
MR. JACKSON: And who's the person that's just rounding the back of the car in front?
MS. ROBERTS: That is Karen.
MR. JACKSON: What is the car in front?
MS. ROBERTS: That's Karen's SUV.
MR. JACKSON: That's the Lexus SUV.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, it is.
MR. JACKSON: Behind that Lexus SUV, Miss Roberts, is there another car?
MS. ROBERTS: That's my car.
MR. JACKSON: And who's getting out of that car?
MS. ROBERTS: I am.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And this is the point that you were describing— in your— at least in the grand jury testimony at that time. This is the time that you're describing—
MS. ROBERTS: I thought it was when we walked in.
MR. JACKSON: This is the time that you were describing, right? When you arrive at the scene.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Or sorry, arrive at One Meadows.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let's go ahead and play this through. Okay, you can stop it. And you can bring the lights up. You saw the interaction between all three of you and the vehicles, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: At any point, did anybody stop and take a look at the tail light or the rear end of the car?
MS. ROBERTS: Not when we were entering the house like I thought, but when we came out.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And there's no video of that.
MS. ROBERTS: I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: There's no video of that.
MS. ROBERTS: No, I don't believe so.
MR. JACKSON: Right. So, the video that does exist describes nearly exactly the time that you testified that y'all stopped at the back of the tail light and Karen said, "Look, my tail light's broken. Oh my god, do you think I hit him?"
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Okay. And that obviously was incorrect.
MS. ROBERTS: It was incorrect.
MR. JACKSON: So, your memory was faulty about that incident. That part of that incident at least.
MS. ROBERTS: It happened on the way out of the house.
MR. JACKSON: So, your memory was faulty about that part of the incident that you testified to at the grand jury.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You were interviewed on January 29th. You've already testified to that, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: By Trooper Dunne and— my memory is failing me now. There were two— I don't know who they were.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I'm sure it's in my notes somewhere. Two individuals that interviewed you on January 29th, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Obviously, things were very very fresh in your mind at that point.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes. But I believe I was in shock.
MR. JACKSON: So, the incident had just happened.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you were asked to recount certain of the specifics about the incident that you had just experienced, not days or weeks, but just hours before.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you did your best, I'm sure, Ms. Roberts, to be as forthright as possible, to provide them with as much detailed information as you could and to be as honest as you could.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I mean, you weren't going to lie to these police officers, right?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: In your very first conversation with those two troopers on January 29th, you didn't mention anything about a tail light or a cracked tail light or you seen a cracked tail light, did you?
MS. ROBERTS: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. ROBERTS: I didn't want to accuse anybody of anything.
MR. JACKSON: You were then interviewed on February 1st, 2022, a few days later.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: I don't know. Does that sound right?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know the exact date. I was interviewed again but I don't know the exact date.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. During your interview— let me withdraw that and ask a different question. On February 1st, or whatever day it was, the subsequent time that you were interviewed just a few days later, you did then for the first time describe the tail light that you saw.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Would it refresh your recollection if you looked at a report?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, please.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let me have just a moment, your honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'm handing you a two-page report, Ms. Roberts. I put a little dot on the second page just to direct your attention to the discussion related to the tail light. If you want to take a look at that.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay. Okay.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection that you were interviewed on February 1st, 2022 by a trooper by the name of Connor Keefe? And a trooper by the name of Kathleen Prince.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did Connor Keefe write that report? I'm sorry. Did Connor Keefe write that report?
MS. ROBERTS: Trooper Kathleen Prince wrote the report.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Does that matter? No. Nope. Okay. Does that refresh your recollection that you did discuss the tail light at that time?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And did you tell Trooper Prince and Trooper Keefe that you noticed the back right tail light — in the middle, quote, "in the middle," your words — was broken and a piece of the metal encasement was pushed forward?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You didn't say that the tail light was completely shattered.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. You didn't say that the entire lens was missing.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. You said it was broken in the middle. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Um —
MR. JACKSON: And then you described today that a square piece was missing.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, that's the piece I was referring to.
MR. JACKSON: In the middle — just in the middle of the tail light, though. That was how you described it.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I'd like to shift gears for a quick second and talk about a March 7th, 2023 text message with victim witness advocate Steve Nelson. Do you remember communicating — you don't have to know the exact date, but if you do, fine. Do you remember communicating in March of 2023 with victim witness advocate Steve Nelson about the Ring camera at One Meadows?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know the exact date, but yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Is it true that you contacted him to inform him that the O'Keefes needed to replace, or wanted to replace, the driveway Ring camera? That same Ring camera that we just literally saw through that perspective of you arriving?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did Mr. Nelson indicate that he believed that would be fine to replace that Ring camera if the O'Keefes wished to do that?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't remember if he said it would be fine, but at some point they were told they could replace it. It had broken. It wasn't working.
MR. JACKSON: Did he indicate that he would check with ADA Adam Lally and then get back to you?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: At some point you were informed that the O'Keefes had sort of had the green light, or the go-ahead, on the camera at One Meadows. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And then ultimately you relayed that to the O'Keefes — that they had the green light. You've talked to somebody at the DA's office and they said, "Yeah, go ahead and replace the camera." Correct.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did you ever receive any kind of response from the DA's office either before or after you relayed this information to the O'Keefes to say, "Wait, hold on. We need to do a reconstruction. We need to make sure that the camera is in the exact same spot that it was at the time of the incident."
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Any communication like that?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: So the communication that you got was, "Yep, go ahead and replace it. It's no big deal."
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Ultimately, you learned that the O'Keefes did in fact replace that Ring camera.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You have already described your relationship, at least in part, with Canton police officer Sergeant Michael Lank. Correct.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: He is friends with you?
MS. ROBERTS: His daughter is friends with my daughter.
MR. JACKSON: You're friendly with the family?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you're aware that he's also friends with the Albert family?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Well, no. Were you aware that Michael Lank grew up with Chris Albert?
MS. ROBERTS: I was not.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever been in a social setting with both the Lanks and the Alberts?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: You're aware, obviously — you were at the scene. He was the first officer to respond to the crime scene at 34 Fairview on January 29th, after Officer Saraf and after Officer Mullaney arrived. Correct. Then it was Sergeant Lank.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know which order. I did see Sergeant Lank there.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Was he the — was he the — Excuse me.
MS. ROBERTS: Oh.
MR. JACKSON: I was just reminded you indicated that you don't remember the date of that text communication between yourself and Mr. Nelson.
MS. ROBERTS: No, I don't remember the date.
MR. JACKSON: Would it refresh your recollection if you looked at a text message between the two of you about the subject of the Ring camera?
MS. ROBERTS: Sure. Do I need to know the date? [unintelligible]
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Thanks. Is it March 7th, 2023? Is that your recollection?
MS. ROBERTS: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you. You indicated that you did recognize Sergeant Lank at the scene.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: You had a conversation with him.
MS. ROBERTS: Nope. I said, "Mike, is that you?" He said, "Yes," and that was it.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Following that, the next day, you did go to his house. You've already described that.
MS. ROBERTS: I did.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that you went to his house to drop off your daughter for a play date. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: But you also indicated that you took Jennifer McCabe with you.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes. Because I drove Jen McCabe to the O'Keefe's house. So she was leaving to go home with me. So I was going to drop her off.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So your memory is you took Miss McCabe from where?
MS. ROBERTS: Over to the Lank's house. I think she was at home.
MR. JACKSON: So you picked her up?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At her house?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: With anybody else?
MS. ROBERTS: With my daughter, my son. I picked up her and either one or two of her daughters. I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: And then you drove over to the Lank's house. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Nope. I drove to the O'Keefe's house first.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And what did you do at the O'Keefe's?
MS. ROBERTS: Left a couple of kids. And my daughter wanted to go to the Lank's house. So I drove my daughter to the Lank's house before driving home.
MR. JACKSON: And Jen's child was with you on the way from Jen's house over to the O'Keefe's house.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes. One or two daughters, I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Dropped the one or two kids off at the O'Keefes. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: As well as my son.
MR. JACKSON: As well as your son. Then you went to drop off your daughter for the play date.
MS. ROBERTS: Well, she was 13, so it wasn't a play date.
MR. JACKSON: What?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know what it's called.
MR. JACKSON: I know. I know. I don't have a 13-year-old. What — a date. Date. Whatever it is. So she went over to her friend's house.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But you took Jennifer McCabe with you?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes. Because I was driving her home, back to her house.
MR. JACKSON: Without her kids?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, she was going home.
MR. JACKSON: Were you going to go back to the O'Keefe's and pick up her kids and then take all of them home?
MS. ROBERTS: I didn't have a plan. I mean, Patrick —
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. ROBERTS: — nephew, is my son's best friend.
MR. JACKSON: Got it.
MS. ROBERTS: So he wanted to be with him.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did you — I think you just answered this, but I want to make sure I'm clear about it. You didn't take separate cars. You all went in the same car. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did anybody stop by or go by 34 Fairview during that roundabout?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Nobody stopped off at 34 Fairview either on the way or on the way back.
MS. ROBERTS: No. I don't believe so. That wouldn't be the route in which to get to my house.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Exactly. You indicated that you stayed — even though you were dropping off your daughter, y'all stayed. You and Miss McCabe stayed at Sergeant Lank's house for some 45 minutes. Does that sound about right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: And Sergeant Lank's wife — you indicated — was in the backseat of your car?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did y'all ever go inside the house?
MS. ROBERTS: Jen went in to go to the bathroom.
MR. JACKSON: Was Sergeant Lank there?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know. I didn't go in.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't have any communications with Sergeant Lank. I'm sorry. You didn't have any communications with Sergeant Lank himself, Mike Lank, on that trip?
MS. ROBERTS: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: But you don't know whether or not Jen did.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know whether or not Jen did. She went in the house to go to the bathroom.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You've indicated that there have been occurrences in which Jennifer McCabe has asked you to contact the DA's office on her behalf — to ask a question here or there, get some information. Correct.
MS. ROBERTS: To Steve Nelson.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Okay. How many times — just a number, volume — would you say that Miss McCabe has asked you to reach out to the DA's office, in one way or another?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't think very many.
MR. JACKSON: What does that mean?
MS. ROBERTS: Of the 50 times that we've had — [unintelligible], maybe like four. Not many, to my knowledge.
MR. JACKSON: When you would — on these four occasions, or four or so occasions — when you would reach out to the DA's office, gather information, whatever that information may be, would you then report that information back to Miss McCabe?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You obviously understand the importance of providing statements to law enforcement that are free of influence of other people, other witnesses. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Say it again.
MR. JACKSON: You understand the importance of providing information to law enforcement as a witness, free of influence from other people.
MS. ROBERTS: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: In other words, you want to be as accurate and as independent as possible.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that's because if your statement is somehow, or if your communications with law enforcement are somehow influenced by others, it might call into question the credibility of the person providing the statement.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Can you answer that question, Miss Roberts?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Next question.
MS. ROBERTS: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: A statement that's been colored by influence from someone else would lack credibility. Right?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: I want to talk about the statements and the prior testimony that you have provided in this case, Miss Roberts. There have been several of them. The first time you told your story to law enforcement was on January 29th. We've already established that.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Say that again.
MR. JACKSON: It was on January 29th. The first time you relayed your story to law enforcement.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that was to Trooper Dunne and Trooper DiCicco.
MS. ROBERTS: That's the name I couldn't remember. I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: But you do remember Trooper Dunne.
MS. ROBERTS: I remember two troopers. I don't know their names.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Where did that interview take place?
MS. ROBERTS: In my dining room.
MR. JACKSON: And who was with you when you gave that interview, if anybody?
MS. ROBERTS: My husband was home. I don't think my — I think my daughter was home at that point. I don't — my husband was home. I don't know if the kids were home.
MR. JACKSON: Nobody else from outside the family?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Who contacted you about doing that interview? How did they know to come to you at your home?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't remember. They may have just shown up. I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Do you remember what time the interview was?
MS. ROBERTS: Maybe around dinnertime. Maybe around 5, 6.
MR. JACKSON: Was it recorded in any way? Tape-recorded?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't think so.
MR. JACKSON: The troopers were taking notes, obviously.
MS. ROBERTS: I believe so.
MR. JACKSON: During your conversation — and I'm jumping around a bit, so I apologize — during your conversation or conversations with Mr. Brennan and members of the DA's office in preparation for your testimony, were any of those interviews recorded?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Was anybody taking notes?
MS. ROBERTS: No. No.
MR. JACKSON: None of the ADAs were actually taking notes?
MS. ROBERTS: I didn't look around the table to see if anyone was taking notes, but I didn't see them taking notes.
MR. JACKSON: No pads and pens on the table.
MS. ROBERTS: There's a lot of stuff on the table, but I didn't see anybody taking notes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You received a phone call just before that interview started — at 5:25 p.m. Correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Around 5:00, 6:00.
MR. JACKSON: Is this the night of the 29th? I'm jumping back to the night of the 29th?
MS. ROBERTS: Yeah. I'm not following you very well.
MR. JACKSON: That's okay. On the 29th — yeah. You were interviewed around 5:25 p.m. Maybe just a little bit before that. You received a phone call just before that. Correct?
MS. ROBERTS: I do not know.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that Jen McCabe called you and spoke to you just before that?
MS. ROBERTS: I spoke to Jen McCabe the entire day.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Including just before that interview.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell Jen McCabe that you were about to be interviewed?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did you text her and tell her that the officers had arrived?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't think so.
MR. JACKSON: Did she text you back and say, "Call me right after"?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't think — I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. During the course of that interview, when the incident was still pretty fresh in your mind, you indicated that at about 5:00 a.m. you got a call from Karen Read indicating that John never came home and that she was worried.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You also indicated that she was worried that John may be walking and may have gotten hit by a plow. You relayed that to the officers.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that you met up with Karen Read and Jennifer McCabe at Jennifer McCabe's house, and Karen was hysterical and worried that something had happened to John.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You also indicated that once you were at 34 Fairview, once you all had made your way over to 34 Fairview, Karen saw John and ran to him, although you and Jennifer didn't see him initially.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. That's correct.
MR. JACKSON: You said that Karen was repeating the phrase, "Is he dead? Is he dead?" over and over. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: That is correct.
MR. JACKSON: You also indicated that if anything happened to John, she'd kill herself.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. That's what she said to me.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did either of the troopers indicate to you after your initial interview that if there was anything further that you could recall that would be useful, please provide it at that time?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Would it refresh your recollection to look at that January 29th report?
MS. ROBERTS: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you very much. Take the second page of that report from January 29th. And there I put a little mark by paragraph 5. You can take a look at that.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: During this interview with Trooper Dunne and Trooper DiCicco, they indicated after you gave your statement that if you wish to provide anything additional, now is the time to do it.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Were you informed that you were limited on time in that interview? Meaning, "We've got to get this done. We're leaving. We're out of time." No, they didn't cut you off. Correct? No, they didn't tell you that they had a limited amount of information that they wanted and then they were just going to leave.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. I don't remember. I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, they told you that anything you wanted to provide to them, provide it. Give them as much detail as you could.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You just read the last statement that these troopers indicated, correct? "If there's anything further she could recall that would be useful, please provide that information."
MR. LALLY: Judge, may we approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Having looked at the report —
JUDGE CANNONE: No, no. Bring it to her and show it to her again.
MR. JACKSON: It's the same thing that I just showed her. Having looked at the report, does that refresh your recollection about what Trooper Paul — I'm sorry, Trooper Dunne and DiCicco told you at the end of the interview?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't recall. It's not refreshing. I'm not remembering it. Even reading it, I'm not remembering it.
MR. JACKSON: I see. Okay, fair enough. As you sit here, the details about what those two officers told you are not fresh in your mind, and nothing's refreshing your recollection about that, right?
MS. ROBERTS: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: But you do remember the basics of what I just described in that conversation with those two troopers.
MS. ROBERTS: I mean — they asked me what happened. I told them, but I was also in shock.
MR. JACKSON: You never said during the course of that interview that my client called you at 5:00 in the morning, just hours earlier, and said, "He's dead," and then hung up.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. No, I don't believe I said it at that point. I did not remember that until a couple days later.
MR. JACKSON: I see. And in fact, when you were asked about that particular series of events, that never came to your mind.
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: That literally the first words out of Karen Read's mouth, according to you now, is "He's dead," and then hung up.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: When you heard that, you didn't take that to mean that she killed him.
MS. ROBERTS: No, of course not. She was panicked.
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You also didn't add in your initial statement to Trooper Dunne and Trooper DiCicco anything about the tail light either. Correct?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you also didn't say anything about any sort of a Google search or the praying that you talked about in the back of the patrol car, anything like that?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know. I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: The second time you were interviewed, that was the February 1st interview. That was with Kathleen Prince and Connor Keith, correct? And you've just looked at that record. At least part of that report. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Say it again.
MR. JACKSON: Connor Keith and Kathleen Prince. That was on February 1st, three days after your initial statement.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. I don't remember the date, but I remember meeting with them.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I want to make sure I get the dates down. So, I'm sorry to belabor this, but may I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Would this refresh your recollection if you would look at the report of that interview?
MS. ROBERTS: It might.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. First paragraph. Thanks.
MS. ROBERTS: Am I reading the whole thing or just the part where you dotted?
MR. JACKSON: This is the impression date.
MS. ROBERTS: Oh, for the date. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. What date was it that you met with them?
MS. ROBERTS: February 1st.
MR. JACKSON: That second interview was conducted at 12 Country Lane, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And who again lives at 12 Country Lane?
MS. ROBERTS: Jennifer McCabe.
MR. JACKSON: So the second time you told your story to law enforcement, you were literally sitting in Jennifer McCabe's house.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you had met with Jennifer McCabe before your interview.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yes. We were putting a timeline together.
MR. JACKSON: So you two were actually prepping — that's a valid term — prepping for your interview.
MS. ROBERTS: And Jennifer McCabe was helping you with the timeline and you were helping her with the timeline.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes, we were putting together the events of what had happened.
MR. JACKSON: So she was helping you and you were helping her. Yes or no?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So both of you were assisting in each other's memories.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yes. I remember this and you remember this and — okay, now I remember this.
MR. JACKSON: Obviously, that would help influence your memory, going over the event with someone else, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: So what's on that timeline, you would agree, is not completely independent of your memory. It's a combination of your memory, Jennifer McCabe's memory. Isn't that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I have just a moment, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, your honor. So the two of you drew out some sort of a timeline for you to follow during the course of that interview. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: For me to follow what?
MR. JACKSON: During the course of that February 1st interview, as you were interviewed in Miss McCabe's house. I mean, that was the purpose of the timeline — to help you with that interview.
MS. ROBERTS: No, that wasn't the purpose of the timeline.
MR. JACKSON: You used it for that purpose, though.
MS. ROBERTS: Obviously, we did not. I was at Jen's house making a timeline and the two officers showed up to interview her. I just happened to be there.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And when they interviewed you, did you have that timeline in front of you? That's my question.
MS. ROBERTS: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But you had just created it along with Jennifer McCabe.
MS. ROBERTS: Some of it.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And then it was after that — that this timeline was coordinated between the two of you — that you actually told your second story to Trooper Prince. And when I say second story, I mean the second time you were interviewed, on February 1st as opposed to January 29th. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ever become aware of text messages that Jennifer McCabe was sending to others in a group chat talking about you in that interview?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: You were never told or became aware that she sent text messages to a group as she listened in on your interview?
MS. ROBERTS: No, I don't think she could listen in. She wasn't anywhere near me.
MR. JACKSON: You weren't aware that she — or are you aware as you sit here that she sent a text message that said "she's telling them everything, all the stuff" —
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever been provided a text message or told about a text message that perhaps Jennifer McCabe was sending to a group?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Listening to — suggesting that she was listening to your interview?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: The third time you told your story was later that night in a telephonic interview. Is that right? With Trooper Proctor.
MS. ROBERTS: I requested to speak to Trooper Proctor because I had remembered the very first time I spoke with Karen that morning and I wanted to make sure it was recorded.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. That wasn't my question. My question was, did you have another telephonic conversation with Trooper Proctor? Yes or no?
MS. ROBERTS: You said that night, but it wasn't that night.
MR. JACKSON: When was it?
MS. ROBERTS: I think it was earlier that day.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Meaning — but it was after the interview with Trooper Prince.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't think so. I think it was beforehand. I think it was beforehand.
MR. JACKSON: You were still with Jennifer McCabe when that phone call took place.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. I was in her house. I was not with her. I stepped away to speak to him by myself in her home at 12 Country Lane.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Who else was with you other than Jennifer McCabe in the house?
MS. ROBERTS: Her sister was there writing down the timeline for us. Her sister Denise.
MR. JACKSON: Denise. So she was describing the timeline as you and Jennifer McCabe were creating it.
MS. ROBERTS: She was writing it down as we were remembering things.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And the three of you were doing this together, sort of communally.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes. She would say something, then you would say something, then it would spark something that she would say, and back and forth.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. How is it that Trooper Proctor got a hold of you? Did you call him or did he call you?
MS. ROBERTS: I think he was on the phone with Jen and I asked to speak to him.
MR. JACKSON: So Trooper Proctor got a hold of you through talking to Jen McCabe.
MS. ROBERTS: Well, I asked to speak to him, but yes.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Was that interview recorded to your knowledge?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: The fourth time you met with police was February 2nd, the very next day at about 12:08 p.m. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember signing a consent form for your phone?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Was that the next day after this interview with Trooper Prince and Trooper —?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know what day it was. It was right after Karen was arraigned for the first time. Jen and I met with them and both handed our phones over willingly.
MR. JACKSON: So you've just answered my question. So when you met with police, whatever the date was, it was a few days later — yet a fourth time — you were still in the presence of Jennifer McCabe when you met with police?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And handed your phone over. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And she handed her phone over. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And the two of you were together when you signed your consent forms. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The fifth time you told your story was in front of a grand jury. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember testifying in front of a grand jury?
MS. ROBERTS: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Let's talk about that for a second. Before you testified at that grand jury, just physically, you were brought into an anteroom where you waited to be called by ADA Adam Lally. Correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Who was in that anteroom with you just before you gave your testimony?
MS. ROBERTS: My husband and Jen and Matt McCabe.
MR. JACKSON: So, Jennifer McCabe was with you yet again just before you gave official testimony under oath concerning this case and concerning the incident. Correct. Miss Roberts, when was the last time you spoke to Jennifer McCabe before you testified in this trial?
MS. ROBERTS: This morning.
MR. JACKSON: Did you discuss your testimony?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: So, you and Miss McCabe, who became friends because of this incident, correct — talked as recently as this morning before your testimony, correct? And your testimony now is that you did not discuss anything about what you're doing here?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Or what you're going to testify to.
MS. ROBERTS: She called to wish me good luck today.
MR. JACKSON: When did you talk to her the last time before this? Before this morning.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know. Maybe a couple days ago. I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: Within days of you taking the stand?
MS. ROBERTS: Yesterday.
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: [unintelligible] Miss Roberts, I'm going to ask you to take a look at — actually, let me ask a different way. Did you say that you did or did not recall texting with Jen McCabe during that January 29th interview with state police? Do you recall that or no?
MS. ROBERTS: No. During the interview, I didn't text anybody.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Are you saying you didn't text anybody, or you don't recall?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't recall. I don't think I had my — I wouldn't be texting somebody if I was being interviewed by the state police.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Would it refresh your recollection to take a look at a report of text messages?
MS. ROBERTS: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look. There's two tabs. Take a look at the tabs and the data across the two tabs if you would.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay. Absolutely.
JUDGE CANNONE: Jurors, feel free to stand up and stretch if you'd like. And I forgot to tell you, anytime we're at sidebar, please feel free to stand up and stretch.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. That was quicker than we thought. Judge, may I proceed?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did you take a look at this document?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection that there were two text messages at around the time of your interview with those two troopers?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recall as you sit here texting Miss McCabe that the state troopers were arriving, or "they're just getting there"?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: And do you recall Miss McCabe texting you anything back about "calling me after"?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Different question. Did you in fact call Mr. McCabe right after the interview and talk to him?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Have you ever testified that at the scene Miss Read was seated in the back of a patrol car along with Jennifer McCabe and you were standing just outside the car, and there was an interaction among the three?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever testified, or have you ever said, stated in any — during that interaction, Karen asked the three of you to pray?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Have you ever said or testified that during that interaction — where they are seated in the back of the patrol car and Miss Read asked you to pray — that Miss Read said to Jennifer McCabe, "Google hypothermia"?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: You've never said that?
MS. ROBERTS: I've never said that.
MR. JACKSON: You testified at the grand jury on April 26th. Is that right? April 26, 2022.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't — [unintelligible].
MR. JACKSON: Does that sound like April 26, 2022?
MS. ROBERTS: I have no idea.
MR. JACKSON: Late April 2022. Does that sound right?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know. It was 2022.
MR. JACKSON: You testified under oath, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Sworn the same oath that you swore here.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth — [unintelligible] — perjury. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yep. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Is it your testimony that you have never said that Karen told Jen to Google hypothermia, or that you don't recall saying that?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't recall saying that.
MR. JACKSON: Would it refresh your recollection to look at a portion of your grand jury testimony from that day?
MS. ROBERTS: It might.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And if you can read on to page 83 as well.
MS. ROBERTS: Nope. I testified. I didn't hear it, but I was told that she was asked to Google it.
MR. JACKSON: You testified under oath at the grand jury that at some... point, Karen was in the back of the police cruiser. Correct.
MS. ROBERTS: Yep.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: No, I'll allow that question.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection as to what you told the grand jury?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And isn't it true that at some point during the course of your testimony under oath, you said that Karen was in the back of the police cruiser?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And then you went on to describe that Karen and Jen and I were standing outside and she made us all start holding hands and starting to pray.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Meaning what — the "she" being Karen Read, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And at this point they had lifted John up and taken him onto the gurney. Correct. That's what you described.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, I'm going to do this again just so we're clear. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Sure.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Just a portion at the bottom of the page. At the bottom. At the bottom. Last couple.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay. Yep. I say I think so. I'm not positive.
MR. JACKSON: I have a question for you.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Your recollection.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you testified basically that you think — at least that's what you were telling the grand jurors — you think that was the point at which they lifted John up.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And moved him into the ambulance. Correct. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Then you were asked a question. What if anything did she, Miss Read, ask Miss McCabe while they were sitting in the back of the cruiser that you heard? Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recall that?
MS. ROBERTS: I did not hear the question about Google being asked.
MR. JACKSON: That's not my question. May I ask? May I inquire? Just repeat that question.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that you were next asked by Mr. Lally in front of the grand jury, quote, "What if anything did she, Miss Read, ask Miss McCabe while they were sitting in the back of the cruiser that you heard?" End quote. Do you remember being asked that question?
MS. ROBERTS: No.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Look at lines 16 through 18.
MS. ROBERTS: Okay. Yeah. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection that that was the question that you were asked?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And in response to that question, you stated, quote, "At one point, she asked her to Google hypothermia." And how long? Google hypothermia.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Who? I'm sorry.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was a very detailed — you'll agree that that's a very detailed and specific recount of an event. You recounted where you were — back of a cruiser, or they were in the back of a cruiser.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yep.
MR. JACKSON: You reported the time was right around the time that you thought they were lifting John up and scooped him up onto the gurney.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yep. I thought it was about that time. I wasn't sure.
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, I didn't get that answer. You were talking over each other. What was your That's my mistake. What was your answer, Miss Roberts?
MS. ROBERTS: I thought it was about the time they lifted him up, but I wasn't sure.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You were very detailed about who was there. It was you. It was Jen. It was my client, Karen Read. Correct. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were so detailed that you talked about where you were standing — next to the cruiser, cruiser open door.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What the others were doing — holding hands and praying. Is that right?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And the actual words used. You were as detailed about all of that as the actual words used. She asked her to Google hypothermia. And how long? Then you stopped. Google hypothermia. End quote.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You will agree — at least for that purpose, you painted a very, very detailed picture in front of the grand jury, didn't you?
MS. ROBERTS: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Except it's not true, is it?
MS. ROBERTS: I did not hear her ask that. I was told she was asked that.
MR. JACKSON: In the answer to my question, Miss Roberts — and this is not a trick question — what you told the grand jurors was not true. You never heard her — my client — ask anyone to Google anything, did you?
MS. ROBERTS: I did not.
MR. JACKSON: And yet that's what you testified to under oath, under penalty of perjury, in front of the grand jury. You didn't?
MS. ROBERTS: I did.
MR. JACKSON: And the reason you did that, the reason that you said that false statement, was because someone told you to say it.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to let her answer that.
MS. ROBERTS: Nobody told me to say it. I knew it happened at that time, which is why I said it.
MR. JACKSON: How did you know it happened, Miss Roberts, if no one told you it happened?
MS. ROBERTS: Because we wrote a timeline. We already spoke about that.
MR. JACKSON: The timeline that Jennifer McCabe helped you with that influenced your testimony in front of the grand jury. Correct.
MS. ROBERTS: Obviously it — I was telling what happened in the back of the cruiser.
MR. JACKSON: The timeline you wrote.
JUDGE CANNONE: So when you ask a question, let her answer.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. The timeline you wrote with Jennifer McCabe's help influenced your testimony to testify in front of the grand jurors to a statement that you never heard. Correct.
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were later asked about that statement in another investigation — I'm sorry, by another investigator or set of investigators. Correct?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Were you interviewed by a different law enforcement agency, a separate law enforcement agency from the Massachusetts State Police at any time?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you were told that to lie to those agents would be a crime, correct?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Punishable by prison.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. I was not told that.
MR. JACKSON: They asked you whether or not you heard Karen Read ever say anything to Jennifer McCabe about Googling anything. Correct?
MS. ROBERTS: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that you told them what you've just now told us, which is I did not hear Karen Read ask Jennifer McCabe to conduct any Google searches.
MS. ROBERTS: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: Would it refresh your recollection to look at a copy of that interview and that report?
MS. ROBERTS: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I'm going to ask you to take a look at the entire document, just to familiarize yourself with it, if you don't mind, including the front page. And don't answer anything about the document until I ask you a question, if you don't mind, please.
MS. ROBERTS: Sure. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Miss Roberts, do you recognize that as being a report of an interview that you conducted?
MS. ROBERTS: I've never seen this before, but understood.
MR. JACKSON: You may never have seen it, but does that remind you that that's a report of a conversation you had with another law enforcement agency? I'm going to ask you to turn to page seven of that report. And if you look, there's a small paragraph about two paragraphs up from the bottom. I think I may have put a little blue dot by it, but I'm not sure. Please read that to yourself.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct. Done. Yep.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Miss Roberts, does that refresh your recollection about what you told these investigators?
MS. ROBERTS: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And what you told them was you quote did not hear Karen Read ask Jennifer McCabe to conduct any Google search.
MS. ROBERTS: That is correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you went on to say you saw McCabe on her phone.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MR. JACKSON: You saw McCabe on her phone, but you did not hear Karen ask Jennifer to Google anything.
MS. ROBERTS: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So, what you told the grand jurors was in fact false.
MS. ROBERTS: I misunderstood Mr. Lally's question.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. Thank you.