Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveJennifer McCabe - Recross
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MS. MCCABE: John O'Keefe. Correct. I walked to the door, saw the car, and that's when I sent him a text. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Right. So, you walked up to the door, saw the SUV outside, and then texted him something, basically while you're standing at the door, I believe.
MS. MCCABE: So, yes.
MR. JACKSON: What did you text him?
MS. MCCABE: Okay. Uh, that was —
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember the time?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, would it refresh your recollection if you were to look at a series of text messages contained in a Cellebrite report? I think you've seen this before.
MS. MCCABE: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. May I ask one foundational question before I give this to the witness? Miss McCabe, I'm going to ask you about a series of text messages. It's not a memory contest in terms of the timing. I'm going to ask you about probably five or so. All of those purport to be contained in here. Do you remember the times of those five texts?
MS. MCCABE: I don't off the top of my head.
MR. JACKSON: Do you think it would refresh your recollection to look at all those in one fell swoop as you look at this document so I don't have to go back and forth?
JUDGE CANNONE: Are these in evidence?
MR. JACKSON: This is not in evidence to my knowledge.
JUDGE CANNONE: Not yet.
MR. JACKSON: Did it help you to remember?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Why don't you bring it to Miss [unintelligible]? Thank you. Thank you. This is just Miss McCabe, if you wouldn't mind, take a look at the tabs. Not that whole document — two tabs. Take a look at the tabs and go in reverse chronological order, and see if that refreshes your recollection about the time and content of text messages that you sent to Mr. O'Keefe that early morning of January 29th.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not going to have to remember the exact times of all five, am I?
MR. JACKSON: I'll help. Okay. Thank you, Miss McCabe. Did you see a text on here that was consistent with your memory that you texted "here"?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And was that at 12:14? I'm sorry, at —
MS. MCCABE: 12:27 a.m. I don't know exactly. I'm assuming if it's on that paper.
MR. JACKSON: If I may have just a moment, your honor — why don't I confer with counsel for just a minute? Miss McCabe, we're going to make it a little easier for you.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you. May I, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your honor, I would offer the following stipulation. At 12:14:27 on January 29th, 2022 — text message from Jen McCabe to — I'm sorry — text message from John O'Keefe's phone to Jen McCabe's phone: "Where to?" At — all these are on January 29th, 2022. At 12:27:33, from Jennifer McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone: "here," exclamation point, question mark. Same date, 12:31 and 47 seconds. From Jen McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone: "pull behind me." Same date, 12:40 and 31 seconds, from Jen McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone: "hello." 12:42 and 9 seconds, text message from Jennifer McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone: "where are" — the letter U. Okay, thank you. Finally, 12:45 and 53 seconds, from Jen McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone: "hello."
MR. JACKSON: I would offer the stipulation that those are correct times and dates and contents of the text messages between John O'Keefe's phone and Jennifer McCabe's phone on January 29th, 2022.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. And that's what you're agreeing to, Mr. Brennan?
MR. BRENNAN: Yes, your honor. It's contained in the Cellebrite report.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. All right, folks. So I told you yesterday about a stipulation when I talked about something in the pipeline. This is similar. So what you just heard — both lawyers agree that that's information contained in a Cellebrite report.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, your honor. May I continue?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At some point you indicated that — and by the way, Miss McCabe, at 12:27, it's now been stipulated to — you texted a single word, "here," exclamation point, question mark. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You indicate that you saw the SUV move up after it was in front of 34 Fairview Road. It moved up some number of feet. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: The next time I looked, it was at a different location. Right.
MR. JACKSON: Now, you did not see the white Jeep move from the place that you originally saw it, in front of the mailbox. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I never looked out at the white Jeep.
MR. JACKSON: But you never saw that move, ever?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, Mr. Higgins' Jeep was in the same spot while Mr. Higgins was inside the residence until he left. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: That's what I would assume. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you never saw him go out and move his car and come back in or anything like that?
MS. MCCABE: I never did. No.
MR. JACKSON: After you — it's fair to say that once you noted that Miss Read's SUV was in front of the location, you started paying some attention to it.
MS. MCCABE: I went to the door a few times to look out. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, in the course of about 19 minutes, you went to the door no fewer than five times. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if it was five.
MR. JACKSON: You've indicated previously that for every time you went to the door and saw the SUV, you texted something — which are the texts contained in the document that was just stipulated to. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I did text five times. You are correct.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So it's fair to say, if you texted five times, then you went to the door five times, if those were associated with one another — you walked up, looked out the door, saw the SUV, and texted something: "here," "pull behind me," "where are you?" Those texts, correct?
MS. MCCABE: I remember going to the front door, seeing the car, and texting "here." When I went to the door the second time, the car had moved out towards the flag pole and I texted "pull behind me" because I thought, did they not know where to park? Did they think they were at the wrong house?
MR. JACKSON: So my question is this: every time you went to the door, you texted something.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure that I did.
MR. JACKSON: Yes.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure that I did. Sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember a year ago testifying that every single time you texted, you indicated that you looked out at the SUV and saw something that prompted you to text something?
MS. MCCABE: Am I aware that I said that?
MR. JACKSON: Correct. That you testified to that.
MS. MCCABE: Could you show that to me, please?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Thank you. May I, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look at the highlighted portion and just read that to yourself. Let me know when you're finished.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, does that refresh your recollection about the issue we were just talking about?
MS. MCCABE: I see what's written down. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Did you testify, in answer to the following question: "And as a matter of fact, you looked — every single time that you texted, you indicated that you looked out at the SUV and saw something that prompted you to text something. Correct?" Answer: "Correct."
MS. MCCABE: I answered correct to that. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So if you texted five times — that's all I'm getting to — you went to the door about five times.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure. I remember definitely going twice. And again, if I misstated — if I said I went five times, four times, I apologize.
MR. JACKSON: Well, do you think this testimony is an error?
MS. MCCABE: No, I don't. I'm thinking with my memory — it was three years ago, and I'm thinking that maybe I wasn't clear on that detail of how many times I went to the door. What I can tell you I'm clear on is that I did go twice, and I saw it — I saw it straight ahead, I saw it at the flag pole, and a third time further up. I cannot say with certainty, with my memory today, that I was up at that door every single time. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: And by the way, when you testified — as you just saw — that was a year ago, correct?
MS. MCCABE: A year earlier and a year closer to the event. Correct. Yes, it was.
MR. JACKSON: Your memory would have been a little bit fresher then than it is now, a year later.
MS. MCCABE: I don't think I can compare my memory then to now.
MR. JACKSON: You can't compare your memory? Do you think your memory gets better with time?
MS. MCCABE: Well, some things unfortunately I think about every single day — with this case, the trauma of it and what I experienced and went through. And there are some things that I am certain I will never forget. And I know for sure where the car was, and I know for sure I sent those two texts. But I apologize if I misstated — I went out more than I did. I'm just trying to give you what I remember.
MR. JACKSON: Today, let's talk about those texts and you looking out the door. You did approach the door and you saw that the vehicle was there the initial time. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: That's one — when I texted "here." Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you texted "here," exclamation point, question mark. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you indicated that when you first saw the vehicle, it was straight out ahead of you, in front of the front door, and it was stationary. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Then you said you went back to the door and you saw that it had moved up — quote — a little bit. Isn't that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Toward the flag pole, is that right?
MR. JACKSON: Was that the flag pole?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And when you saw that it had moved up toward the flag pole, then you texted again at 12:40, which has been stipulated to — "hello." Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: When I saw it move up to the flag pole, I believe I texted "pull behind me."
MR. JACKSON: When you went the second time. And by the way, it's my mistake — I jumped over one. It was 12:31:47, which we stipulated to — "pull behind me." That's when the SUV was up closer to the flag pole. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Then you went yet again at 12:40 and saw the SUV yet again and texted "hello." There's the second "hello."
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if that was when I texted "hello."
MR. JACKSON: But you did see that the SUV had moved again.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Now, where was it? At first it was straight ahead, then it was at the flag pole, and then it was further up. Then at 12:42, two minutes later, you texted "Where are you?" Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. At that point, it was still up by the flag pole.
MS. MCCABE: No, I'm not saying that. It was still outside.
MR. JACKSON: Where was it?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure where the vehicle was.
MR. JACKSON: At 12:45, you texted yet again — "hello." Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that — you texted "hello" the last time you saw the vehicle. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not saying that today. No.
MR. JACKSON: Well, did you say it previously, in your testimony?
MS. MCCABE: Did I say that the last time I texted? Do you have that written that I could see?
MR. JACKSON: You just read it.
MS. MCCABE: Well, that was your question that you had read to me. I never came out and said that.
MR. JACKSON: I asked you if you testified to that a year ago. That's my question. Did you testify to that a year ago?
MS. MCCABE: To what? That — that when I went to the door?
MR. JACKSON: Yeah.
MS. MCCABE: Different times when I went to the door, I did text. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And then you testified as well that you went to the door a final time and saw that the SUV was gone. It had left. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. At one point I did.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And that was just a couple of minutes after your last text at 12:45. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure of the time.
MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, you've testified previously that it was around 12:50 that you — I'm sorry — that you last went to the door and noted that the car was completely gone. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure of that.
MR. JACKSON: You're not sure of that?
MS. MCCABE: No. If you could show me, I'd appreciate it.
MR. JACKSON: At some point, did you note that the vehicle was gone? Let's get to that.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Around what time was that?
MS. MCCABE: I do not know. 12:45. A little before, a little after. I'm not sure. I can't give a time.
MR. JACKSON: Would it refresh your recollection to look at how you testified to that particular time last year?
MS. MCCABE: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. The highlighted portion.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection as to what time last year you indicated that you went to the door and saw that the SUV was gone?
MS. MCCABE: It says on the paper that I was asked if after 12:45 it was gone and I answered correct. I never gave a time.
MR. JACKSON: All right. And that coincides with the last hello that you texted to John's phone.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Again, I don't have that paper in front of me. Is that the—
MR. JACKSON: That's the stipulation. You don't need to worry about that. That's been stipulated to — your last hello text was at 12:45.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: So that coincides — that testimony from last year coincides with your last text message saying hello. You noted that the SUV at that point had gone. It had left.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So, if I hear your testimony correctly, you saw the SUV in position one.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: There was a text or something, or two, maybe. Then you saw it in position two. You went back to the door and noted that the SUV had moved and it was now closer to the flag pole.
MS. MCCABE: Well, you've just asked two questions. It had moved closer to the flag — first question is, you said I saw it and I sent a text or two. I know I just said one here.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Then you saw it a second time.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And now it's closer to the flag pole.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And there's texting going on. I'm not getting down to the minute of the text, but there's texting going on. You're sending texts.
MS. MCCABE: I'm sending. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Then you went back to the door a third time and saw that it had moved beyond the flag pole.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Then according to your testimony last year, you went back to the door at least a fourth time to see that it was gone.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I believe so. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So at bare minimum, based on your testimony today, you were at the door looking out the window at that portion of either the yard directly in front of you and in front of the house or toward the flag pole or beyond the flag pole four times. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. From last year's testimony, but what I remember today—
JUDGE CANNONE: You need to let her answer the question. Answer the question, please. Go ahead.
MS. MCCABE: Okay. Um, what I remember with certainty is looking at it [unintelligible] out front, at the flag pole, and beyond. I don't remember how many times I went up to the door. I was back and forth.
MR. JACKSON: Right. But according to you, you saw the car in three different positions.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So that's at least three times through the door.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you saw the car gone, right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: 3 + 1 is four.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: So now you're telling us that you went to the door a minimum of four times and looked across that yard at the SUV.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You had a clear view of that SUV as you looked out that storm door every time you went to the door, didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: It was dark and snowing, but I could see a vehicle out there. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, you've indicated that it was a clear view. There was nothing obstructing your vision, correct?
MS. MCCABE: No, there was nothing but the weather conditions.
MR. JACKSON: And by the way, the blizzard had basically just started. There was a dusting on the ground. It was snowing. It was accumulating. Right? But it was early in the storm.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, yes. Absolutely.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And when asked about whether or not you had a view — well, let me ask you that a different way. In terms of your view of the SUV and the distance from the storm door to the SUV to that curb line, there was nothing obstructing your view. You had a clear view of that. A good view of the SUV.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. When I looked out the window, I could see the SUV in front of me. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: At no time during any of this interaction with the door — meaning going back and forth to the storm door, texting, looking outside, seeing the SUV in position one, seeing the SUV in position two, seeing the SUV in position three — at no time did you hear anything, any noise that was unusual, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No, I didn't.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear any screaming?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear any yelling?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: No loud voices?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: No foul language?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear a door slam?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear a verbal argument or a fight of any kind?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear a revving engine?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear the squealing of tires or the scraping of tires on the pavement?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear a collision take place?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Or a crash?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Or screams for help?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Moaning, groaning as if someone was in distress?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: As you looked at the SUV the first time, you've already indicated that you had a clear view straight out the door. Right?
MS. MCCABE: Right. It's right in front of the front door as the crow flies. Right. It's not at an angle — right there.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Okay. You also previously indicated that you saw tire tracks in the roadway.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: In that very, very light dusting of snow — the accumulation that you talked about — you saw tire tracks of some sort.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So that's down on the ground beyond the yard somewhere in the roadway, in the street.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You had a good view of those tire tracks as well, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, you were able to describe those as sort of almost a wave, I think you once said.
MS. MCCABE: Yeah. Across the street. I could see it because of the street light that was across the street.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And that presented at least enough illumination based on your view. You could see the tire tracks in the snow.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Over to the left.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And you detailed not just the shape of those tire tracks as being sort of like a wave, but where those tire tracks were.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Like this. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Where did you see them?
MS. MCCABE: I believe over to the left. If I'm looking out straight. Oh, sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Straight. So, if you're looking outside at the SUV — I'm just going to turn my back to the jurors for a second for perspective. If you're looking outside the door, when you say "straight out," the SUV is straight outside. When you say "to the left," you mean to the left of the SUV on the ground. That's where you saw the tire tracks.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Like somebody might parallel park or something. Kind of a wave. Yeah. I can't really explain what it was. I just saw it.
MR. JACKSON: You weren't paying special attention. You weren't looking for tire tracks, were you?
MS. MCCABE: No. When I glanced out, I saw it.
MR. JACKSON: You weren't looking for anything in the roadway at that point. You just glanced out. It was something in your peripheral vision and you made note of it.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And the only thing between you and the SUV as you looked out was the lawn.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: There's no ditches or hills in that lawn. It's a flat lawn.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I wasn't looking at the ground. I was just kind of looking like I am at you right now. Straight.
MR. JACKSON: You know that lawn. You've been to that house 100 times. 500 times. There's no ditches or bumps or hills or mountains on that lawn. It's just a flat lawn, right?
MS. MCCABE: I guess you could categorize it as flat. Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: Can we take a look? May I go on?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Can you take a look at that for a quick second? Tell me if you recognize it.
MS. MCCABE: I do. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: What do you recognize that as being?
MS. MCCABE: 34 Fairview.
MR. JACKSON: That's the same photograph with just a little modification on it that you saw a few minutes ago.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Your honor, I would ask that that be marked for identification.
MR. BRENNAN: Publish — not for identification. No. Happy, your honor, if I may — if it's marked for identification, I wouldn't object to showing it.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. All right. It's a chalk at this point.
MR. JACKSON: May I publish?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you.
COURT CLERK: H for identification.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. There you go. Mr. Woll, you may. There you go. Thank you. What's depicted in that photograph?
MS. MCCABE: 34 Fairview.
MR. JACKSON: Do you see the front door that you went in?
MS. MCCABE: I do. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Can you point it out for the jurors, please?
MS. MCCABE: Sure. Right there.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. The one with the brick steps leading up to it?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Now, with this perspective, can you point out the side door?
MS. MCCABE: Sure. That looks like a screen door just to the right of the hedges.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. With that perspective, can you point out the garage door?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, that one. Sorry. That's just to the right of the window inside that recess of the home.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Okay. And does that fairly and accurately depict the lawn as it was on January 28th, 29th?
MS. MCCABE: Other than the fact that it's different weather, right? The shape of the lawn. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you. Put that down, Mr. Woll. So, what was that marked as? Madam court reporter, thank you. Your honor, I would ask to move that into evidence. If we need to take a minute on that, I'm happy to, but that is my request.
JUDGE CANNONE: Is there an issue?
MR. BRENNAN: No, I won't object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. 46.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you, your honor. May I continue, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: The first time you looked out over that lawn to the SUV, you did not see John O'Keefe, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: He was not outside that SUV.
MS. MCCABE: No, he was not standing or sitting. Not that I saw.
MR. JACKSON: He certainly wasn't on the ground, was he?
MS. MCCABE: Not that I saw.
MR. JACKSON: The second time you looked out and saw the SUV. Now the SUV is more toward the flag pole.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you had a clear field of view between you standing at that door and the SUV. You've already described that view.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I can see the SUV. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you could see everything in front of the SUV as well, couldn't you?
MS. MCCABE: I just would go to the door and look at the SUV. I wasn't taking in all the surroundings, but
MR. JACKSON: Just like you weren't taking in the surroundings specifically looking at the tire tracks when you saw the SUV standing right in front of you. You saw them through your peripheral vision — the tire tracks.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that's lighted — where around the SUV it was very dark. I didn't ask you about lighting yet. We'll get to that.
MS. MCCABE: I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Tire tracks — even though you weren't looking for tire tracks, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: Something that stood out to you in your peripheral vision. Look out. There they are.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Absolutely. Mm-hm.
MR. JACKSON: That second time you looked directly at the SUV with no obstruction between you and the SUV, you did not see John O'Keefe standing outside the SUV.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: He wasn't sitting down.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: He wasn't lying down.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You certainly did not see his body in the snow toward that flag pole.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And you would have been looking directly toward that flag pole.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I was looking at the vehicle.
MR. JACKSON: Directly toward the flag pole, Miss McCabe.
MS. MCCABE: I was looking in the direction of the flag pole at the vehicle. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And you saw no body in the snow, did you?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't look for a body in the snow.
MR. JACKSON: I didn't ask you if you looked for one. You weren't looking for tire tracks either, were you? But you saw those.
MS. MCCABE: I did see those. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you did not see a body in the snow?
MS. MCCABE: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: John O'Keefe, 6'2", 216 lbs. Brawny guy. Big boy, right?
MS. MCCABE: I don't think I'd refer to him as a big boy, but he was tall. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: All right. You certainly didn't see him prostrate in the snow the way you found him the next morning.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Later that morning. I didn't see anything on the ground. No.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. The third time you looked out toward that SUV, it's still in the direction of the flag pole, but a little further up, a little deeper to the right.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Again, looking directly in the direction at least of the flag pole and that area of the yard. You were looking beyond that to the SUV.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You did not see John O'Keefe standing outside the vehicle?
MS. MCCABE: I did not. No.
MR. JACKSON: He was not sitting outside the vehicle.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And he certainly wasn't lying on the ground, was he?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't see him.
MR. JACKSON: And the last time you looked out, Miss McCabe, this is now 12:45 or so. The last time you looked out, the SUV was gone. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: But you were still looking in that direction because that's the last place you saw the SUV. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I looked out the window like this. I wasn't searching anywhere, just glanced out the window and I didn't see it.
MR. JACKSON: I'm just asking you a direction, not whether or not you were searching. I know you didn't send out a search party. That's not my question. My question is, were you looking toward the area where you last saw the SUV around 12:45 a.m.?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That would be directly across the lawn, directly past the flag pole, and directly into the street where you last saw the SUV.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I glanced out. Yes. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And the same way you glanced out at the SUV — to use your words, glanced out and saw the tire tracks. Right.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: But you did not see John O'Keefe standing on the lawn.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You did not see him sitting on the lawn.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And you certainly did not see his body lying on the lawn, did you?
MS. MCCABE: No. No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: Ultimately, you left the location that night, the gathering at 34 Fairview. Is that right? You didn't spend the night there?
MS. MCCABE: No, I went home.
MR. JACKSON: About what time was it that you left the location?
MS. MCCABE: Um, approximately — it was after 1:30. Approximately 1:30, 1:45.
MR. JACKSON: So this is maybe an hour later — later than what we've just been discussing. Yes. Seeing the SUV. Who did you leave with?
MS. MCCABE: I left with my husband Matt and Julie Nagel and Sarah Levinson.
MR. JACKSON: Who was driving?
MS. MCCABE: My husband Matt was driving.
MR. JACKSON: And where was Sarah Levinson and Julie Nagel sitting in that SUV?
MS. MCCABE: They were in the back seat.
MR. JACKSON: By the way, what kind of SUV were you in that night?
MS. MCCABE: A Yukon. Four-door extended seating. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When the SUV pulled out — it was in the driveway.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When the SUV backed out of the driveway doing a three-point turn, backed out of the driveway, did it go toward Chapman or did it go toward Cedarcrest?
MS. MCCABE: It went towards Chapman.
MR. JACKSON: So as you backed out of the driveway, you would have been heading toward the flag pole side of the property rather than back toward the driveway side of the property.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You would have driven directly adjacent to the area where John O'Keefe's body was later discovered at 6:03 a.m.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You were seated in the passenger seat of the vehicle, not the driver's seat.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You were seated in the front of the vehicle, not the back seat.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You would have been closest to the yard as you all drove past.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That's a newer model Yukon. I'm assuming that the headlights automatically turn on at night.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So the headlights were illuminated.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did your husband Matt — did he turn on the brights or did he leave the beams on low, or do you know?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: But certainly the area in front of that SUV, that Yukon, was well lit. The lights were on.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You did not see anything out of the ordinary as you drove right by that location, did you?
MS. MCCABE: I was looking in the back seat when we were driving.
MR. JACKSON: Did you see anything out of the ordinary on that lawn as you drove by in that SUV?
MS. MCCABE: No, because I wasn't looking at the lawn.
MR. JACKSON: You certainly did not see John O'Keefe dressed in dark clothing laying prostrate in the lawn.
MS. MCCABE: No, I did not.
MR. JACKSON: You said that you were turned around talking to the other young ladies in the SUV, Julie Nagel and Sarah Levinson. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated that you were engaged with them about a conversation having to do with bread and maybe peanut butter or something?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't, as you passed by that location adjacent to where John's body was later discovered — you didn't hear Julie Nagel say anything out of the ordinary about having seen something.
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't hear Sarah Levinson say anything out of the ordinary about having seen something?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And according to you, you were turned around directly engaged with both these young ladies as you passed by that area where John's body was later discovered. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: When we pulled out, I turned around and I was talking to them about the bread and the peanut butter. I'm not sure exactly where we were driving, but it was when we pulled out. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You certainly never heard anybody say anything like, "What was that?" or anything close to that.
MS. MCCABE: No, I didn't.
MR. JACKSON: I'd like to turn your attention to your arrival back at 34 Fairview just after 6:00 a.m. the next morning. You indicated that the visibility was relatively poor and that you could not see John O'Keefe on that lawn from your perspective.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. The visibility was extremely poor and no, I could not see him.
MR. JACKSON: You were in the front seat passenger side.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I was.
MR. JACKSON: It was Karen Read who actually saw Mr. O'Keefe, jumped out of the car, and began attending to him immediately.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Karen got out of the car and ran to John O'Keefe.
MR. JACKSON: And you stayed by the car and Miss Roberts ran over to assist Miss Read in giving first aid, at least initially, to Mr. O'Keefe. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: No, that is not. Kerry got out and walked over and then I got out and walked over.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated — well, let me ask a different question. Yesterday, you testified in pretty significant detail that when you got out of the car, you could not see anything even close to the flag pole.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Visibility was very bad.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, you used the word "white out conditions." Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: "White out conditions." You basically can't see your hand in front of your face.
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't say that extreme, but I used "white out" as there's just snow coming at you.
MR. JACKSON: You were specifically asked by Mr. Brennan, how close did you have to get before you could actually see anything of note where Miss Read had gone? Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You testified yesterday that you could see just merely shadowy figures of Miss Read and Kerry Roberts. And it wasn't until you got very close over to them that you could see John — in your words.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, you followed that up by saying that that was the first moment — once you got basically on top of them — that was the first moment that you realized that it was John, that there was a body on the ground.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I said as I got close to them — I don't think "on top of them."
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. It's my words, not yours. You did say, quote, "very close to them."
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I'd have to see it, but —
MR. JACKSON: Well, you just testified to it yesterday. Do you remember saying "I got very close to them"?
MS. MCCABE: I know. I said I got very close to them or close to them. Something like that. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I don't have a transcript of yesterday's testimony. I'm sorry. Last year you testified to something very different than that, though, didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that last year you testified that you got out on the passenger side of the vehicle, which is — we'll agree the furthest side from the lawn, as Miss Roberts was driving, from Chapman toward — is that, uh, sorry — Cedarcrest?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You testified that you were on the passenger side, and as you got out of the vehicle, you noted that Karen Read was already at John. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: As I got out and walked around the back of the vehicle, the shadowy figure of Karen had already gotten onto something.
MR. JACKSON: You further testified that as you got out of the vehicle, you noted that she straddled John, lifted up his shirt, lifted up her shirt, and went to lay on — and Miss Roberts went over and said she would — and she started removing John — — snow from John's face. Correct. I have the page and line number.
JUDGE CANNONE: Where are you, Mr. Jackson?
MR. JACKSON: May 17, 2024. RT 114, lines 14 to bottom onto 115, line four. Is that how you testified last year?
MS. MCCABE: I'm sorry. Would you mind just repeating it?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Thank you. You testified in substance that you were on the passenger side of the vehicle, and as you got out — quote, "as I got out," end quote — she, Miss Read, was already at John. You indicated that you saw her straddle him, lift up his shirt, lift up her shirt, and lay on top of him, while Miss Roberts went over and removed snow from his face. That's how you testified last year. Correct. Is that how you testified last year?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure. I know —
MR. JACKSON: Next question. Would it refresh your recollection if you were looking at a copy of your testimony from last year?
MS. MCCABE: I don't think looking at it would refresh my memory. I know I might have used different words, but the bottom line is I got out of the car, went behind the car, went over, and Karen had done that.
MR. JACKSON: I'm asking — do you think it would refresh your — if you don't have a recollection of how you testified last year on that witness stand, I'm asking, do you think it would refresh your recollection to see your transcript from last year?
MS. MCCABE: I don't need to see my transcript. I know what I know and I know what I remember. So — that's not my question —
MR. JACKSON: I'm not asking you what you remember now. I'm asking how you testified a year ago. Now, whether — I said it was — as we're fighting over silly words, whether I said — as — as I got out of the car — we were —
MS. MCCABE: They are — words matter. They matter a lot.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: Mr. Jackson — no comment. Miss McCabe, answer his question.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember exactly how it is that you testified last year?
MS. MCCABE: I do not. No.
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar]
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Now you can go ahead.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, does that refresh your recollection as to how you testified in substance last year?
MS. MCCABE: I see what it says. I said — but it's a — — little bit different than what you stated.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, then let's walk through that. Did you indicate last year that as you got out of the vehicle, that's when you could see what Miss Read was doing with John O'Keefe — down to the detail of pulling her shirt up and pulling his shirt up to try to go skin to skin?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
PARENTHETICAL: [objection]
MR. JACKSON: Is that what you said, Miss McCabe?
JUDGE CANNONE: Why don't — why don't I see you at sidebar, Mr. Jackson?
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Miss McCabe, is it true that you had the following colloquy last year on this subject? Answer: I was on the passenger side. So as I got out, she was already at John. Question: So she gets out and essentially makes a beeline over to where — — John was. Answer: Correct. Question: And you're getting out of the passenger side, and by the time you come around the car, she's already there. Answer: Yes. Question: And when she gets over there, what, if anything, could you see at that point? Answer: She straddles John and lifts up his shirt. And then she lifted up her shirt and went to lay on it. And Miss Roberts went over and she was removing the snow from his face. Is that how you testified last year?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, that's how I answered the questions.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Clearly, you didn't indicate last year that it was white out conditions, you could see nothing of the kind, and you — — had to get quote-unquote "very close" to him before you could see anything. Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. It's the first word that's problematic, Mr. —
MR. JACKSON: Yesterday, you testified that it was white out conditions. You had to leave the car, walk all the way over, and get quote-unquote "very close" to John before you recognized that it was even a body. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: But last year you testified that you were still at the car when you noted the detail of Karen basically giving lifesaving aid to John — you can see that clearly all the way from the car. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Is there a reason, Miss McCabe, that you might wish to improve your testimony this year over last year with regard to the distance at which you could see Miss Read engaged with Mr. O'Keefe?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: Are you trying to suggest — or improve your testimony — to suggest that you had no idea that there was a body there and that nobody reasonably could have even seen the body there as you drove up?
MS. MCCABE: Exactly.
MR. JACKSON: Is that what you're trying to say, Miss McCabe? [unintelligible exchange]
MS. MCCABE: Can you repeat the question, please?
MR. JACKSON: Not sure — I'll give it a shot. I'm sorry. Are you trying to improve your testimony this year over last year to suggest that reasonably nobody could — — have seen where John was from the car?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not — I'm not trying to improve my testimony. No.
MR. JACKSON: You claimed on direct examination today, as a matter of fact, that Miss Read looked at you at the scene and said the phrase, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." She said it three times, very distinctly, according to your testimony. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: She did. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was so impactful that it had the effect of putting you in some sort of shock and horror. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: I was in shock the whole morning, but that statement definitely was a lot.
MR. JACKSON: And that's an incredibly memorable statement for you to have heard and now recount to us in — — this trial. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Something that you wouldn't easily forget or overlook. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Something I wouldn't —
MR. JACKSON: Something you would not easily forget or overlook. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, some might say it's the centerpiece of your testimony.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, you testified at a grand jury in April of 2022, did you not?
MS. MCCABE: I did. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Before you testified, you took an oath very much like the oath that you took before you testified in this case. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And that included the whole — — truth, at the state grand jury. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That was only weeks — several weeks, but weeks — after this incident, right? April 26th versus January 29th, 2022. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Things were much fresher in your mind then than they are now.
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't necessarily say that.
MR. JACKSON: Especially something as momentous as an admission from my client that she hit him. Would you agree?
MS. MCCABE: Would I agree that she said that?
MR. JACKSON: Would you agree that that would be fresh in your mind? Something as momentous as that. You wouldn't forget that.
MS. MCCABE: I will never forget it.
MR. JACKSON: You wouldn't overlook that.
MS. MCCABE: I will never forget it.
MR. JACKSON: You would — — not overlook that either, would you, Miss McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: I answer the questions I'm asked.
MR. JACKSON: Can you answer the question that I just asked? You're not answering my question. Would you overlook that?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: And the reason you wouldn't overlook it is because it was so impactful on you — having heard that not once, not twice, three times: "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look at that document. Can you recognize it?
MS. MCCABE: It's — yes, I see it.
MR. JACKSON: Is that a transcript of your entire testimony at the grand jury in April of 2022?
MS. MCCABE: I believe so. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You've reviewed it in the past?
MS. MCCABE: I have read it about a — — year ago. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You read it in anticipation of your testimony a year ago, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I reviewed it.
MR. JACKSON: Have you reviewed it in preparation for your testimony — yesterday?
MS. MCCABE: No, I haven't.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, turn to the page or pages in that transcript where you recount to the grand jurors that my client said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him."
MS. MCCABE: This is over 227 pages. Take your time.
MR. JACKSON: How long did you say it was, Miss McCabe?
MS. MCCABE: 227.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm not going to let her read 227 pages. You reviewed it before, haven't you?
MS. MCCABE: I reviewed it a year ago. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You read the whole thing cover — didn't you?
MS. MCCABE: I skimmed through it.
MR. JACKSON: One of the most important points in your — — testimony yesterday and today is recounting to these jurors the phrase, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." Is that right?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Objection to the form. Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Was it important to you to tell these jurors that you heard my client say, "I hit him," three times?
MS. MCCABE: I answered the questions and I'm telling the jurors what I know.
MR. JACKSON: Was it important to you before testifying today that you recount to these jurors the phrase, "I hit him," coming out of my client's mouth?
MS. MCCABE: Your client said she hit him.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. That's not my question. Listen to my question.
JUDGE CANNONE: Mr. Jackson —
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. Was it important to you before you testified to tell these jurors under — — oath that my client said, "I hit him," three times?
MS. MCCABE: As a juror — I mean, as a witness, it's important to tell the truth and to answer the questions you were asked.
MR. JACKSON: And in point of fact, in your entire grand jury testimony, you never said my client said the words, "I hit him." Did you? Again — it's 227 pages. Miss McCabe, you were there. They're your words. I'm not asking you to rehearse something. You were there. Did you tell the grand jurors that my client said, "I hit him?"
MS. MCCABE: I have testified a number of times, but I was there the morning of January 29th when your client said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him."
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell that to the grand jurors?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: It's because you didn't. Did you?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I'm not sure.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, you were asked in your grand jury testimony no fewer than a dozen times — 12 times, 12 separate times — you were asked to repeat words that my client said both before going to and at the scene at 34 Fairview that morning. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Do you know the answer to that?
MS. MCCABE: No.
MR. JACKSON: You were also asked multiple times what my client's words were that you heard her say, both going to and at the scene.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. I was. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And you recounted those words truthfully and honestly at that time.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Because you were under the same oath that you're under today.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And things were much fresher in your mind then than they are now, three and a half years later. Would you agree with that?
MS. MCCABE: "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him" is just as fresh today as it was three years ago.
MR. JACKSON: Turn to page 190, if you wouldn't mind.
MS. MCCABE: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: For the court and counsel, lines 10 and 11.
MS. MCCABE: Which lines? I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: 10 and 11.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, okay. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: You recounted what Miss Read said to you over the phone to the grand jurors. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And what she said at 4:53 a.m. was, "Did I hit him? Could I have hit him?" She didn't say it. She asked it. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Um, she didn't say that at 4:53.
MR. JACKSON: Did you testify that what Miss Read said to you that morning over the phone was, "Could I have hit him? Did I hit him?"
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Oh, sure.
MR. JACKSON: Just wanted to verify a page number, your honor. May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Why don't you tell Mr. Brennan the page number?
MR. JACKSON: I will with each one. If you turn to page 192, line four. What did you tell the grand jurors? My client said —
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar]
MR. BRENNAN: Objection. Foundation.
JUDGE CANNONE: What are we talking about?
MR. JACKSON: I'll ask it a different way. Did you answer a question on page 192, line four, concerning my client's statement?
MS. MCCABE: Did I answer a question? You were answering a question, correct? Oh, yes. Yes. I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: And the answer that you gave to the grand jurors was she said, "Could I have hit him?" Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. That's part of the answer I gave.
MR. JACKSON: Turn to page 193.
MR. BRENNAN: I'd object.
JUDGE CANNONE: So I don't want to have to see it at sidebar. We need context in order for this to be admissible. Mr. Jackson, I have no idea what that said.
MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I can make an offer of proof at sidebar if you wish.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Why don't you come to sidebar, and bring them.
MR. JACKSON: May I please?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Do you have an extra copy for yourself?
MR. JACKSON: I have — I think my [unintelligible] is on page 192, line four for context. Were you talking about a statement that was made in Karen's car on that morning before you got to the scene?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. 192, line four.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, that was a comment she made in the car, and she said the phrase, you
MR. JACKSON: Recounted that she said the phrase, "Could I have hit him?" Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, that was part of my answer.
MR. JACKSON: Take a look at page 193, lines one through two. This was also in the context of a conversation that was in Karen's car. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And the phrase that you attributed to my client was, "Could I have hit him?" The question. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Page 193, line 23, in the context of being in John's driveway at One Meadows.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. And you attributed the statement — and she's asking if she could have hit him. Correct. Yes. When she showed me her tail light.
MR. JACKSON: Page 201, lines 23 and 24. This is driving to Fairview. She asked, "What if I hit him? Could I have hit him?" Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Can you tell me the lines? I'm sorry.
MR. JACKSON: Lines 23 and 24. Page 201.
MS. MCCABE: Okay. Sorry. Okay. I've read it. She stated, "According to you, what if I hit him? Could I have hit him?" Correct. Yes, she did.
MR. JACKSON: Page 202, top of the page, lines one and two. Again, in context, this is driving to Fairview, before you arrived at Fairview. And she again asked, quote, "According to you and your testimony in front of the grand jury, could I have hit him?" Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I see that here as part of my answer.
MR. JACKSON: Then turn to page 208, lines 24 and 25.
MS. MCCABE: I'm sorry. What?
MR. JACKSON: Lines 24 and 25.
MS. MCCABE: Lines 24 and 25. Let me know when you've — I've read them. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: For context, this is at the scene outside Fairview.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you told those grand jurors under oath, she asked, "Did I hit him? Could I have hit him?" Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: On page 208 — I'm sorry — page 208 going on to page 209, lines one through three. You actually recounted to the grand jurors a conversation that you said my client had with a female EMT, standing right there, exactly as you testified to today. Female EMT. You see that?
MS. MCCABE: I do. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And what did you say my client's statements were in front of that female EMT?
MS. MCCABE: And I say that she said, "Could I have hit him? Is he dead?"
MR. JACKSON: It's actually, "Did I hit him?"
MS. MCCABE: Oh, sorry. I missed that part. I apologize. "Did I hit him? Could I have hit him? Is he dead? Is he dead? Is he dead?" And that was at the scene, in front of the female EMT — exactly the scene that you're describing, that you attributed the three statements to my client to today. Correct. There were many different times when we were talking to different EMTs — the female EMT, the men, police officers.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Just hold on. Sure.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, your full statement at page 208, starting at lines 22 through 25, going on to page 209, down to line four, was, quote: "So there are different, you know, police officers getting statements from us, and at one point I'm standing with Miss Read and she's saying, 'Did I hit him? Could I have hit him?' And there was, I believe, an EMT, a female, standing right next to me, listening to her yelling, 'Did I hit him? Could I have hit him? Is he dead? Is he dead? Is he dead?' Was pretty non-stop."
MS. MCCABE: Pretty much non-stop.
MR. JACKSON: That was your testimony in front of the grand jurors. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it was.
MR. JACKSON: And that was April 26th, 2022. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Not one time — not one time, Miss McCabe — did you utter the phrase "I hit him" as it relates to my client in front of that grand jury on April 26th, 2022. Did you? Not once?
MS. MCCABE: I'd have to read through the 227 pages to see.
MR. JACKSON: As you sit here today, do you remember ever saying to those grand jurors, "She said, 'I hit him. I hit him. I hit him,' in front of a female EMT"?
MS. MCCABE: I've spoken to a few grand juries, and what I said specifically at different ones I don't recall at this moment. But I do know that morning your client said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him" three times, and there was a female EMT there.
MR. JACKSON: You spoke with Trooper Proctor just the same day, right? January 29th.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Trooper Proctor was taking notes.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: About your conversation?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, he was. Review those notes. As a matter of fact, I didn't review his notes. I think I've seen a report.
MR. JACKSON: At one point or another, on that very day — January 29th, 2022 — when you were asked to recount what happened at the scene, who was doing what and who said what, you never told Trooper Proctor that my client said "I hit him" either, did you?
MS. MCCABE: Oh, I told him. Yes, I did.
MR. JACKSON: He just left that out of his report?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not responsible for his report.
MR. JACKSON: No, you're not. But you have read his —
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So again, no comments, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: You have read his report, right?
MS. MCCABE: I have seen it before. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May — Yes. Thank you. That report, for another particular, this morning. Do you still recognize it?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I do.
MR. JACKSON: Can you review that report, scan it, and let me know when you're done?
MS. MCCABE: Okay. Is there something specific I should be looking for?
MR. JACKSON: I don't think you're going to find it, Miss McCabe. It's the phrase "I hit him."
JUDGE CANNONE: So again, jurors, disregard the comments. It's question and answer format only.
MR. JACKSON: My question is, do you see the phrase "I hit him" as it's attributable to my client in that report?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recall telling Trooper Proctor that my client said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him"?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recall that?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I told him. He was taking notes at the time. He was taking notes. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Those notes ended up being memorialized in a formal report.
MS. MCCABE: I'm assuming — the report that you're holding.
MR. BRENNAN: I object.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. Does that appear to be a report of the January 29th, 11:35 or so a.m. interview that you did with Proctor?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it does.
MR. JACKSON: You said you reviewed that report in the past.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, in the past.
MR. JACKSON: And you're aware that in no place in that report does the phrase "I hit him" show up anywhere.
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Can I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, I'm sorry. I was just grabbing the report back. Sorry.
MR. JACKSON: May I have just a moment, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: I want to draw your attention to the very early morning hours of January 29th, around 4:53 a.m., when you indicated you received that phone call from Karen's phone. Do you have that time and date in mind?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I do.
MR. JACKSON: My client told you that John had not come home. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And you knew that Miss Read at that point was awake and looking for John.
MS. MCCABE: I didn't know that. I just knew that she was awake and screaming, right? Because she was worried about where John was.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: You've been asked who you communicated with first thing that morning after you received that first call. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked by Trooper Prince in a — her formal interview. Trooper Prince interviewed you on February 1st, about 3 days after the incident. Correct.
MS. MCCABE: I've met with a lot. I don't really remember specific days.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember a female trooper?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, I do actually.
MR. JACKSON: In your house?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Or — I should say at your house?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That was around 3 days after the incident. Was it — Tuesday maybe?
MS. MCCABE: Yeah. I — I don't know.
MR. JACKSON: I wasn't there. I think so.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. If it's the one I'm thinking.
MR. JACKSON: You were also asked at the same grand jury who you communicated with on the morning of January 29th. Remember that?
MS. MCCABE: Not specifically.
MR. JACKSON: Would it refresh your recollection if we were to take a look at a specific page of that grand jury transcript?
MS. MCCABE: Sure.
JUDGE CANNONE: Do you need a couple of minutes, Mr. Jackson?
MR. JACKSON: I do, your honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: So, jurors, why don't you stand up and stretch? Okay. You can, too. Okay, if you want. Thanks. Mr. Jackson, do you want a 5-minute recess?
MR. JACKSON: Sure.
JUDGE CANNONE: We're still going to stop it for — so really 5 minutes, folks. We'll have you go back and come back. Mr. Brennan, do you have any idea how much longer you will be with Mrs. McCabe?
MR. JACKSON: Police have already cleared the scene and you're back with your friends and family inside the home at 34 Fairview. We've already talked about the fact that the witnesses were not sequestered in any way. They were not separated in any way by the police. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: We were — we were just sitting together with friends and family. So, yeah. No, everybody was free.
MR. JACKSON: All the friends and family that were in there were free to talk amongst themselves, which you did do. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Everybody had the opportunity to say their piece and to listen to others say their piece as well?
MS. MCCABE: We had conversations. I don't — it wasn't really nothing more than that.
MR. JACKSON: At some point — I think you mentioned this on direct examination — you did reach out to Mike Lank. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Remind us who Mike Lank is in your world.
MS. MCCABE: Uh, in addition to being a Canton police officer — police sergeant, I think he was at the time.
MR. JACKSON: Who is he in your world?
MS. MCCABE: He was just a local guy that I, you know, knew, was friendly with. And had gone to high school with — uh, no.
MR. JACKSON: Was he ahead of you in high school?
MS. MCCABE: He — we weren't in high school at the same time.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. He was about 5 years ahead of you. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But you had known him or known of him from basically childhood or young adulthood.
MS. MCCABE: Yeah, I just knew him from around town.
MR. JACKSON: At some point, you decided that you were going to call Sergeant Lank back to the scene because there was a piece of information that you wanted to provide him — he needed to come back.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Ultimately, you called him on his cell phone, right?
MS. MCCABE: I did. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So, you were close enough that you had his cell phone number.
MS. MCCABE: No, I didn't have his cell phone number.
MR. JACKSON: Where did you get that number?
MS. MCCABE: I asked Julie Albert for that number.
MR. JACKSON: So, Julie had his cell phone number.
MS. MCCABE: Yes, she did.
MR. JACKSON: And Julie is Chris's wife?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: She was at the location?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: When I say the location, 34 Fairview that morning.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: As was Chris. He came at some point.
MS. MCCABE: I don't know if he was there when I called Officer Lank or not.
MR. JACKSON: As was Brian Higgins, correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, he was. He came back over to the location as well. Yes, he did.
MR. JACKSON: As a matter of fact, it was Brian Higgins who suggested that you reach out to Officer Lank.
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure if it was him who suggested it.
MR. JACKSON: Someone suggested to you that you reach out to Officer Lank. Is that right?
MS. MCCABE: As I was sitting there remembering things, I believe — you know, I can't say who did or didn't.
MR. JACKSON: So as you were sitting there remembering things, you weren't just remembering things — you were remembering things and then telling others things that you remembered.
MS. MCCABE: Oh, absolutely.
MR. JACKSON: So others were absorbing whatever information you were providing to them and vice versa.
MS. MCCABE: No one was really providing me any information 'cause they didn't know what happened. I was —
MR. JACKSON: So you were — Sorry. Go ahead.
MS. MCCABE: Okay. I'm sorry. I was just sitting there trying to recount what had transpired since I got that 4:53 phone call.
MR. JACKSON: And one of the things that you decided you wanted to tell Sergeant Lank was a statement by my client.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So you call Sergeant Lank on his cell phone and you're able to get a hold of him. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Whatever he's doing. Was he — I'm guessing he's busy at the time.
MS. MCCABE: I don't know what he was doing.
MR. JACKSON: He was a first responder on an active police case. So he ended up busy, I would assume.
MS. MCCABE: I again don't know what he was doing.
MR. JACKSON: But in fact, after your phone call, he dropped everything and headed back to 34 Fairview. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did he come back to 34 Fairview quickly?
MS. MCCABE: He was there fairly quickly. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: I would say at your request.
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So you called him and asked him to come back because you told him that you had information that was important enough that he needed to get over there so you could tell him in person.
MS. MCCABE: I called him and told him that I was remembering things and asked if he could come back.
MR. JACKSON: And he didn't just say "Just tell me what it is." He literally — "Okay, I'm going to get in my car, drive in a blizzard." It was still a blizzard, right?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, it was.
MR. JACKSON: "I'm going to get all my gear on, drive through a blizzard, back over to 34 Fairview, get out of my cruiser, come into the house, and get ready for this new information that you're going to give me." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: He did not say all that. No.
MR. JACKSON: No, that's what he did.
MS. MCCABE: I have no idea what he did. He just — I called him and then he came.
MR. JACKSON: Walk over — I mean, he came over in his car, right?
MS. MCCABE: I would assume so. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Right. So, he had to get in his car, drive over in a blizzard, get out of the car, walk through the blizzard, go to the front door, and get ready for this — this new meeting that he's going to have. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: That seems like steps one would take. And whatever it was that you wanted to tell him, you let him know it was important enough to have a special additional meeting. It wasn't something that you were just going to sit on. You wanted to give him this information immediately without hesitation. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: He said if I remembered anything to give him a call, so I did.
MR. JACKSON: So when he came back over, he obviously had a notepad and a pen in his hand. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I believe he was taking notes.
MR. JACKSON: And you told him — you testified this morning — that what you told him was Karen Read said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." Right?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: But when he wrote his report, he wrote that you said she said, "I hope I didn't hit him." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't have his report in front of me.
COURT OFFICER: Just one.
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: You're welcome. If you could turn to the orange tab. Do you see that?
MS. MCCABE: I do. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you've had a chance to read it? Just the highlighted.
MS. MCCABE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yeah.
MR. JACKSON: In fact, what you told Officer Lank was something to the effect of, "I hope I didn't hit him." Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Incorrect. I told him that she said "I hit him."
MR. JACKSON: He wrote in his report, which you just read, something to the effect of — "I hope I didn't" —
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Is this another example of an officer getting a report wrong?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Is that report right?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. Move on, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: You testified yesterday that during that first phone call, that first phone conversation with Miss Read at 4:53 a.m., she told you, according to your testimony, that in that phone call, in that very first phone call, Miss Read said she had gotten into a fight, her tail light was cracked, and she asked, "Could I have hit him or did I hit him?"
MS. MCCABE: Correct. Incorrect.
MR. JACKSON: Tell me where I'm wrong.
MS. MCCABE: Um, in the first phone call, she had said we got into a fight and he didn't come home and I left him at the waterfall. In the second phone call, once I told her that I saw her outside of my sister's house um on Fairview, that is when she said could she have hit him and talked about her tail light.
MR. JACKSON: So 2 hours after Miss Read found John O'Keefe and began giving him CPR, you were interviewed by Sergeant Sean Goode. Correct?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Ask the question differently. Mr. Jackson, two hours after Miss Read found Mr. O'Keefe — about 2 hours later, say 8:00, 8:30 in the morning — after the scene was cleared, you were interviewed by Sean Goode. Were you not?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: May we approach, Your Honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: While you were at the scene, after Miss Read had been giving CPR, Sergeant Goode interviewed you. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember a formal interview with Sergeant Goode. Do you remember talking to him when he arrived at the scene? I do remember briefly talking to him after all three of us gave John CPR.
MR. JACKSON: And he asked you — rather — he asked you certain questions about what you had seen, what you had heard, what had happened. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I have to tell you that I remember seeing him there and I remember talking to him, but I do not remember specifics of any conversation or any questions that he asked me.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember — I'm sorry — do you remember him asking you about any initial calls you had and you telling him about that 4:53 call and the early morning calls thereafter, the initial calls before you met up with Miss Read?
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell Sergeant Goode — by the way, he was a sergeant at the time. Sean Goode was a sergeant, not an officer. I'm not sure. Okay. Um, by the way, you knew Sergeant Goode, did you not?
MS. MCCABE: I didn't know him. I knew of him. Like, I knew his name, but that was it.
MR. JACKSON: How'd you know of him?
MS. MCCABE: Um, before that day — because his sister is a year or two younger than me and I knew she had a brother that was younger, that was a Canton cop, just around the town — but I didn't know him.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Friendly but not friends.
MS. MCCABE: I wouldn't even say I was friendly with him.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Um, you actually told Sergeant Goode at the time, when he asked about those first phone calls, that when Miss Read called you, she was inquiring about John's whereabouts. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I don't recall my conversations with Sean Goode.
MR. JACKSON: You certainly never mentioned to Sergeant Goode the incessant screaming and hysteria that you've described here in court.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ever mention anything about an argument or a fight to Sean Goode?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. Mr. Jackson, she said she didn't remember. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: I have to go through the series of examinations. I don't know what she remembers and doesn't remember.
JUDGE CANNONE: Next question. Mr. Jackson, did you mention anything about a cracked tail light to Sergeant Goode?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Do you have no memory at all about what you talked to Sergeant Goode about?
MS. MCCABE: There were many officers there and, like I said, I know I talked to Sergeant Goode, but I do not remember the specifics of my conversation during that chaotic scene.
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. Let me ask a different question. There were many officers there and many officers were asking you questions. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell any officer while at the scene that during those first few phone calls — first couple of phone calls with Miss Read — that there was incessant screaming and hysteria?
MS. MCCABE: Again, there were many officers asking me questions. Most of them were regarding who John was, if he had medical issues or concerns, things like that. It was a chaotic scene. I don't remember any specific questions about phone calls. I apologize. But you did tell at least one officer about the initial phone call that you received indicating that John may be missing. Correct? I possibly said I got a phone call and that's why I'm here. We all came out to look for him. I apologize for not remembering specifics.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell any officer at the scene anything about an argument or fighting that Miss Read said occurred on that first couple of phone calls?
MS. MCCABE: Again, the conversations were very brief and they were with a lot of different officers. There weren't in-depth conversations.
JUDGE CANNONE: Let her answer the question. Do you recall — that is a yes or no question. Do you recall telling any officer about a conversation in the initial couple of phone calls that you had with Miss Read about fighting or being in an argument? Do you recall that?
MS. MCCABE: I cannot answer yes or no.
MR. JACKSON: Well, you either do or you don't.
MS. MCCABE: I said there were many different conversations. I am not sure.
MR. JACKSON: So you don't recall?
MS. MCCABE: I'm not sure on specific conversations about that. I apologize.
MR. JACKSON: Is there a reason why you're not telling us that you simply don't recall making that statement?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Do you recall telling any officer about a cracked tail light that came up in one of those first two phone calls, at the scene?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I think all the phone call conversations were about what was happening in the present time. And literally, this was a couple of hours after this incident. Correct? When everything was freshest in your mind.
MR. JACKSON: These conversations were at the scene when Miss Read was running around screaming. Were you also interviewed by Officer Mullaney?
MS. MCCABE: Again, there were many officers there that I spoke to.
MR. JACKSON: Miss McCabe, do you understand my question? Did you understand the last question I asked you? If I spoke to Officer Mullaney. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I could have. I am not sure. I don't remember every officer. It was a chaotic scene. I had just found my friend on the ground. The answer is I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. I don't remember speaking to him now. Sorry. Later that morning, you did have a conversation with Officer Lank that you actually do remember. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Yes. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: What you told Officer Lank — or Sergeant Lank — was that you received a phone call from Kayle's phone and that Karen Read was distraught because John never came home. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I told him — I don't remember the exact words, but I told him something like she was hysterical and screaming and said John never came home.
MR. JACKSON: You never mentioned that she said anything about a fight during that initial phone call. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I'm not sure what exactly was said during that initial phone call. You never mentioned that she said something about a cracked tail light in that initial phone call or those two phone calls. Correct?
MR. JACKSON: These phone calls with who? Who are these phone calls? You're — who am I speaking to? Initial phone calls that you had with Miss Read?
MS. MCCABE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You never mentioned to Officer Lank or Sergeant Lank that Miss Read mentioned anything about a fight or an argument. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: I don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: You never mentioned anything about Miss Read saying anything about a cracked tail light in one of those two initial phone calls. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I don't remember all the things that I told Officer Lank. And you
MR. JACKSON: Certainly never mentioned that Miss Read said anything about "could I have hit him" during either of those initial phone calls. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Again, I don't remember my specific conversation with Officer Lank.
MR. JACKSON: So you don't remember the conversation that you had with Officer Lank when it was the clear light of day. You had had a chance to take a beat and a breath, catch your breath — because it's now 11:30, 11:00 in the morning. You don't remember anything about that conversation, but according to your testimony, you remember in detail what my client said, waking you out of a dead sleep. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: So I didn't speak to him at 11:30. It was earlier in the morning when he came back to Fairview. Let's call it 9:00. Whatever.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What? Whatever. It wasn't the same chaos as my client screaming into the phone that John never came home, waking you out of a dead sleep. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: Correct. But when you recounted that conversation or those conversations to Sergeant Lank, you didn't say a thing about Miss Read saying that there had been an argument, did you? I'm saying I don't remember the specifics of my conversation with Officer Lank. I'm also saying that I was woken out of a dead sleep. Karen showed up at my house screaming. I went out to help her look for John and then we found one of my closest friends on the front lawn and she was saying crazy things and acting erratic. And so every police officer that I spoke to —
JUDGE CANNONE: Let her finish.
MS. MCCABE: Every police officer that I spoke to, I tried to answer their questions the best I could. It took me hours and in some cases days to remember all the things that Miss Read had said. My mind — I was in a state of shock. But the minute I remembered she said, "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him," I called Officer Lank.
MR. JACKSON: And your memory is getting better even as we stand here today. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: There are certain things I will never forget, Mr. Jackson, including the
MR. JACKSON: Fact that you never, ever, ever said she said the words "I hit him" to a grand jury when you were asked about it three months after the incident. Correct?
MS. MCCABE: She said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him."
MR. JACKSON: You never told that to the grand jury, did you?
MS. MCCABE: I don't — I can't — I don't remember specifically every grand jury and everything I said, but I can tell you with 100% accuracy she screamed, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him."
MR. JACKSON: And you never said that to the grand jurors.
MS. MCCABE: I don't recall if I did.
MR. JACKSON: They're there to get the truth. Correct? The truth is she said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." You were asked that specific question at the grand jury. What did she say at the scene in front of the female EMT? And you know what your answer was? You do because you just read it.
MS. MCCABE: I wasn't asked what she said at the scene.
MR. JACKSON: Answer that question.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. Ask one more clear question, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: What was the answer you gave in answer to the question about what was said by Miss Read to the EMT, the female EMT at the scene? What did you say she said?
MS. MCCABE: I don't know if I was asked specifically what she said to a female EMT.
JUDGE CANNONE: We're going to end this now.
MR. JACKSON: May I have one more question?
JUDGE CANNONE: Go ahead.
MR. JACKSON: I can't end it like this.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay, jurors. Ignore the comments of counsel. Ask one question, Mr. Jackson.
MR. JACKSON: You said that she said, "Could I have hit him? Did I hit him?" in the presence of the female EMT. That's what you testified to under oath at the grand jury, isn't it?
MS. MCCABE: Yes, because she also said that.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So, folks, we are done for today. You remember tomorrow is the day that we're not in session, so we will see you on Friday. Friday is a full day and I have to give you those questions. You can stay and file out after the jurors leave. Please do not discuss this case with anyone. Don't do any independent research or investigation into the case. If you happen to see, hear, or read about the case, please disregard it and let us know, and be very careful with your social media. Have a great night, a good day off tomorrow. We'll see you on Friday. Thank you. Goodbye.
MR. BRENNAN: Yes. It depends on how the rest goes, but certainly at this point, 20 minutes or less.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So that will hopefully take us to the morning recess, or the lunch recess at most. You have witnesses lined up for Friday afternoon?
MR. BRENNAN: I do. I have a number of witnesses ready for the next three to four days, and I've given notice of them, and I will try to tighten the order tomorrow morning and I'll let the court and the defense know.
JUDGE CANNONE: Great. All right. And nothing you need to see me about right now?
MR. BRENNAN: Not for the Commonwealth.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. All right. We'll see you on Friday. All right.