Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveDaniel Whitley - Direct/Cross
483 linesJUDGE CANNONE: Do you have another witness, Mr. Brennan?
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you, ma'am. Yes, please. The Commonwealth calls Mr. Whitley.
COURT CLERK: Good afternoon. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
MR. WHITLEY: So help me God. Thank you.
MR. BRENNAN: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes, please.
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you, your honor. Sir, could you please introduce yourself to the jury?
MR. WHITLEY: Hello. My name is Daniel Whitley. I'm a paramedic with the Canton Fire Department. I've been a paramedic and firefighter there since March of 2006.
MR. BRENNAN: Before you became a paramedic firefighter with the Canton Fire Department, did you work anywhere else related to that field?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes. I had four years full-time as an EMT, EMT intermediate, and also a paramedic at American Medical Response in Brockton.
MR. BRENNAN: I'd like to take us right to January 29th, 2022. Do you remember that day?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Were you working?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: What was your role that day?
MR. WHITLEY: I was a field training officer working on the ambulance with my partner Jason Becker.
MR. BRENNAN: Mr. Becker?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: That morning, did you know whether there was a call where a group of your colleagues went to an address at 34 Fairview?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Were you accompanying your colleagues on that initial call?
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. BRENNAN: Where were you at the time your colleagues left to go to that location?
MR. WHITLEY: I was at Station 2, Pon Park station, on the north side of town.
MR. BRENNAN: Different station?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: At some point after that call came in and was responded to, did you receive a call?
MR. WHITLEY: Sometime after. I'm not quite sure exactly how soon or later it was, but we received another call to respond to that scene.
MR. BRENNAN: As a result of receiving that call, did you make your way towards that location?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Who did you go there with?
MR. WHITLEY: Just me and my partner at that time, Jason Becker.
MR. BRENNAN: What type of vehicle did you use to get there?
MR. WHITLEY: It was an ambulance.
MR. BRENNAN: What was the weather like?
MR. WHITLEY: It was snowing pretty heavily at that point.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you know about how long it took you to get to 34 Fairview?
MR. WHITLEY: Not exactly, but definitely longer than usual. It should have been an 8-minute drive. I'm guessing 10 to 12 minutes. You could refer to my partner's report for exactness.
MR. BRENNAN: When you got there, what did you see?
MR. WHITLEY: We arrived on scene. Our engine was there before us — we run on a response with an engine and an ambulance to medical calls. And then at least two police cruisers and another car parked on the street, a gray SUV.
MR. BRENNAN: When you got there, did you meet with anybody?
MR. WHITLEY: Yeah. Usually we get out, we say hi to my lieutenant and the other gentleman — Sam Boch — who was on the engine before we got there. They were up front of where we parked, and then we walked down further — or at least I did — to the gray SUV.
MR. BRENNAN: When you reached the gray SUV, did you see anybody inside it?
MR. WHITLEY: At that point we were kind of getting out. We were walking down, they were coming out to greet us. There were three women there.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. Did you speak to any of them in particular?
MR. WHITLEY: Not at that point, no, not really.
MR. BRENNAN: At some point, did you have any interaction with any of the women?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: In fact, did you know any of the women who were there that morning?
MR. WHITLEY: I knew Kerry Roberts.
MR. BRENNAN: How did you know Kerry Roberts?
MR. WHITLEY: We're neighbors. She lives about 200 yards away from me, around the corner. And she helped organize a neighborhood block party, and I would volunteer every year to bring the fire truck to the block party and show the kids the fire truck for a little bit.
MR. BRENNAN: So you knew her well?
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. BRENNAN: Were you friends with her?
MR. WHITLEY: No. Friendly. I would describe us as acquaintances.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you ever socialize with her personally other than the block party?
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. BRENNAN: But you knew who she was?
MR. WHITLEY: I knew who she was.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you recognize her?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you talk to her that morning?
MR. WHITLEY: Not beyond probably a wave or hi or something like that.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. Do you know whether she ever gave you any items?
MR. WHITLEY: I know at one point I had to exchange — whether it was a purse or a cell phone or some object — from Miss Read.
MR. BRENNAN: At some point that morning, did you have an opportunity to meet with the defendant?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Where did you first see her?
MR. WHITLEY: We were in the process of getting her to go to the hospital.
MR. BRENNAN: When you say "we," who was helping you?
MR. WHITLEY: My partner, obviously, Jason Becker, and then my lieutenant, Greg Woodbury.
MR. BRENNAN: Where was she when you first saw her?
MR. WHITLEY: Somewhere outside on the street.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you recognize her in the courtroom today?
MR. WHITLEY: I do.
MR. BRENNAN: And could you identify her, please?
MR. WHITLEY: Indicates.
MR. BRENNAN: You're pointing to a person. Can you give just a very limited description?
MR. WHITLEY: The woman sitting in between these two gentlemen here.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you interact with her that morning? Have a conversation?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: When you first started speaking to her, what was her demeanor?
MR. WHITLEY: Pretty upset, crying. We had a Section 12 in hand, which is a medical order or police order to be taken to the hospital for psychological evaluation.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. Did you discuss that with her?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you ask her to follow you or to come with you?
MR. WHITLEY: Yeah. She did.
MR. BRENNAN: And did that happen — to the ambulance?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: So you went to the ambulance with the defendant?
MR. WHITLEY: Yeah.
MR. BRENNAN: And was Mr. Becker with you?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: What happens when you get to the ambulance?
MR. WHITLEY: So it was snowing and we — it was more to kind of just get everybody into a nice warmer location where it wasn't snowing or windy or anything like that. And we were discussing that, you know, we have a Section 12 that states — regardless of if you want to go, we have to take you to the hospital. And she was arguing that she really didn't need to go to the hospital. And we were trying to convince her to go to the hospital, because once the Section 12 is written, it doesn't matter what the patient says, we have to get them there one way or the other — whether it's cooperatively, restrained, or chemically restrained with sedatives or anything.
MR. BRENNAN: It's not a voluntary order.
MR. WHITLEY: It is not a voluntary order.
MR. BRENNAN: Inevitably, did the defendant agree to go with you to the hospital?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: When you were going to the hospital, was the defendant placed in the back of the ambulance where a patient would be?
MR. WHITLEY: How we operate for anybody that's a Section 12, or anybody that is under the influence of anything, we always operate with two people in the back of the ambulance. So myself and my partner, Jason Becker, were back there, and then we had to take somebody from the engine company and have them drive to the hospital, and that was Sam Boch. B-O-C-H.
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you. Before you left — before you started to drive away from Fairview — were you having any conversations with the defendant?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Can you share with the jury what those conversations were about?
MR. WHITLEY: We were talking. She was upset. She kept asking if there was any chance her husband could be alive, even sitting outside in the snow with no coat on for many hours.
MR. BRENNAN: Did she indicate what "many hours" meant? How many?
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. BRENNAN: How often did she raise the issue of whether — or how long he could be out for?
MR. WHITLEY: At least three to four, maybe more.
MR. BRENNAN: Part of your job is to care for patients, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Was part of your job to try to get them to the location safely?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: And sometimes you treat patients with physical injuries, don't you?
MR. WHITLEY: Many times it is physical injuries. Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Are you trained when you're trying to transport somebody on how to interact with them?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes. Well, sometimes if they're upset. In this instance, she kept asking if there was any chance that he could be alive. And we really didn't know what the patient that ambulance one took. We really didn't know what his condition was. And figuring that it was a hypothermia-type case, given the conditions outside, we were trying to give her hope. There is a saying in the medical field: "You're not dead until you're warm and dead." And I was basically telling her the stories of children falling through ice and falling into rivers and being underwater for multiple hours and coming out, being resuscitated, and having no neurolog— neurological deficits. So I was telling her those stories just to say, look, let's be sure — we'll get to the hospital, we'll find out more there.
MR. WHITLEY: Just trying to give her any sort of hope that her husband would be alive.
MR. BRENNAN: Can you describe her demeanor when she was in the back of the ambulance with you during your interactions with her?
MR. WHITLEY: She would go from pretty upset, crying, and one instance where she kept saying, "I can't take care of these kids. I can't take care of these kids. They're not my kids and they're not his kids." And I, at that point, understood who ambulance one had taken, because John was pretty well known in the town for taking on the care of his niece and nephew. So I said, "Listen, it's okay. It looks like you have a very strong support system." And then Miss Read said, "Do you know Kerry Roberts?" and she had been crying and she picked her head up and said, "Do you know Kerry Roberts?" And I said, "As a matter of fact, I do." And she said, "Anybody who knows Kerry Roberts wouldn't say that about her." And I said, "Well, she did come out early in the morning to look for your husband in a blizzard."
MR. WHITLEY: And she just rolled her eyes and put her head back down. And I thought it was just bizarre.
MR. YANNETTI: Objection. Move to strike.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll strike that last sentence.
MR. BRENNAN: Would you describe her demeanor as even through that ride?
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. BRENNAN: How long did it take to get to the hospital?
MR. WHITLEY: I mean, you can refer to my partner's ambulance trip report. I'm sure it has the —
MR. BRENNAN: Do you have it right with you, sir?
MR. WHITLEY: I do not.
MR. BRENNAN: No. Well, let me ask you.
MR. WHITLEY: I would guess about 15 to 20 minutes somewhere in there.
MR. BRENNAN: You don't have an exact memory?
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. BRENNAN: When you get to the hospital with a patient under these circumstances, do you leave them at the door?
MR. WHITLEY: What do you do?
MR. WHITLEY: We have to hand off care. So we go in and we have to give a report to a nurse, to let them know what their condition is, why they're coming to the hospital, and what we found taking them to the hospital.
MR. BRENNAN: When you got to the hospital with Miss Read, did you interact with the hospital personnel?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you typically, after you hand off a patient to staff, do you leave?
MR. WHITLEY: Typically, yes. This time, Miss Read was — I'm going to say — not really cooperative with the nurse there. The nurse was asking her to get into a Johnny, give a urine sample. She was not cooperative. The nurse tried to work with her, had an ER tech go and ask the doctor if she had to get into a Johnny. She came back, she said yes, she's a patient, she has to do all the normal stuff. We really didn't feel comfortable actually leaving the general area. I don't know if it was just shift change or what, but security wasn't there. And with her demeanor, we just didn't feel comfortable leaving the nurse by herself with Miss Read.
MR. BRENNAN: You said that there was some difficulty. Was there some difficulty about the defendant accepting wearing a Johnny?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes, she was refusing to get into the Johnny. And the nurse kept saying, "Well, you got to get into this Johnny." The nurse did try to work with her and, you know, ask the doc if —
MR. YANNETTI: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow that.
PARENTHETICAL: [objection]
JUDGE CANNONE: sustained.
MR. WHITLEY: — and so the ER tech had to come back and say yes, she has to get into the Johnny. And at that point she did — she seemed to have calmed down and was getting into the Johnny. Security personnel had shown up and we felt comfortable being able to leave the nurse and the tech on their own.
MR. BRENNAN: Before security came, was there difficulty in her providing a urine sample?
MR. WHITLEY: Can you ask the question again? I'm sorry.
JUDGE CANNONE: Why don't you ask it a little differently?
MR. BRENNAN: Sure. Do you remember whether she was giving the nurses a hard time about a urine sample?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So, break that down. Mr. Woll,
MR. BRENNAN: You said that she was giving the nurses a hard time. She didn't want to give a urine sample, and then the nurses kept asking her to — you know, "This is the cup. You pee in the cup."
MR. YANNETTI: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Last one.
MR. BRENNAN: No, I'm going. You were there and saw this, right?
MR. WHITLEY: I saw it. Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you. I have no further questions.
MR. YANNETTI: Good afternoon, sir.
MR. WHITLEY: Good afternoon.
MR. YANNETTI: Sir, you knew before you got into ambulance 2 that you were heading to Fairview Road for what is called a Section 12, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: We were dispatched for a Section 12, correct.
MR. YANNETTI: Right. And that was not your first call for a Section 12, right?
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. YANNETTI: You had been in that job since 2006.
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: You've handled a number of them over the years, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: The fact that the call came in as a Section 12 gave you some idea of the nature of the issue that you might be dealing with.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. We had an idea that it was for a psychological issue.
MR. YANNETTI: Correct. Right. It told you that somebody at that location was suspected of being in some type of either psychiatric or emotional distress.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And on your crew — or of your crew, I should say — you were the one to drive the ambulance, ambulance 2, to the residence. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. I drove to the address at Fairview.
MR. YANNETTI: Now, you've said that when you got to Fairview Road, you don't recall the time, but you do recall that there were still emergency vehicles on scene.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. I do.
MR. YANNETTI: There was nobody lying in the front lawn of 34 Fairview at that time.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And do you know how much later after 6:00 a.m. you would have gone there?
MR. WHITLEY: You'd have to refer to my partner's report.
MR. YANNETTI: You don't know if it was minutes or hours.
MR. WHITLEY: It was — it was minutes. It was within the hour. I don't know exact — within the hour.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And you testified that there were two police vehicles on scene. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: At least two.
MR. WHITLEY: At least two.
MR. YANNETTI: There could have been more than two.
MR. WHITLEY: There certainly could have been.
MR. YANNETTI: And those police vehicles, in such a situation, particularly with the snow falling down, would have had their blue lights flashing.
MR. WHITLEY: I'm not exactly sure if they did or they didn't. Sometimes the police shut off their lights when they arrive on scene. Sometimes they don't.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. So you don't have a memory one way or the other.
MR. WHITLEY: No, nothing sticks out.
MR. YANNETTI: But those police vehicles certainly were not hidden. They were in plain view. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: I would say so.
MR. YANNETTI: Minimum of two, maybe more. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And there was also a gray SUV parked near that residence.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And there was a fire engine there as well.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: You called it "our engine," right? That was from —
MR. WHITLEY: Well, it would be engine three. Engine three from the station one engine.
MR. YANNETTI: I'm sorry. The station one engine?
MR. WHITLEY: So, Canton Fire has two fire stations. We were coming from the second station. The station one engine is the one that responded to Fairview.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And that was a typical large fire engine, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Yeah.
MR. YANNETTI: And did the fire engine have its lights on?
MR. WHITLEY: I assume it did, only because we rarely shut our lights off on a scene.
MR. YANNETTI: Sure. And there were police officers walking about, milling about.
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: Do you know how many?
MR. WHITLEY: I know I spoke with Officer Saraf and Officer Mullaney.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And so at least two. And you know them by name?
MR. WHITLEY: Yeah. Canton's a fairly small town, so you know, you run into the police on a regular basis.
MR. YANNETTI: Sure. And you work cooperatively with them, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: Were there other police officers besides Saraf and Mullaney?
MR. WHITLEY: I'm sure there could have been, but I don't recall ever speaking with them or interacting with them.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. Were there other EMTs or firefighters there when you got there?
MR. WHITLEY: Just my lieutenant, Lieutenant Woodbury, and then firefighter Sam Boch.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And they were in charge of engine one.
MR. WHITLEY: Well, the station one engine. The station one engine.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And there were also civilians on scene.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: So you would agree that there was a lot of activity outside 34 Fairview.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. There's a fair amount of activity.
MR. YANNETTI: I mean, there were people and vehicles and lights surrounding that residence, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: I assume so. Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: Well, you were there, so you don't really have to assume. You know, right? There were at least two police cruisers and a fire engine, right? And civilians and police officers and firefighters.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And civilians.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. With all of that activity outside 34 Fairview, did you ever see the homeowner come out of his house?
MR. WHITLEY: I wouldn't have known the homeowner.
MR. YANNETTI: Do you ever see anybody exit the house?
MR. WHITLEY: I was not focused on the house at all.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. You were there to do a job, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: I was there to take somebody to the hospital.
MR. YANNETTI: Right. And you were there also to do a medical or psychiatric assessment while you were on scene. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Well, yes, my partner was. Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: Right. When you got there — strike that — you knew going there that your patient would have been Karen Read. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. When you got there, you learned your patient was to be Karen Read. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. And given the nature of the call, you knew when you arrived that you would be transporting her to the hospital. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: One of the first things that you tried to do was to get a medical history from her. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Or my partner.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. And you were present for that, correct? I may or may not have been. Getting a medical history is important so that you can pass along information to the hospital when you eventually arrive there with the patient. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And you know that when assessing and treating somebody, getting more information is always better than getting less information. Correct.
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar/recess]
MR. YANNETTI: Sir, the medical history that your partner and you took from Ms. Read listed that she suffered from multiple sclerosis. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Not necessarily.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. So there are times when you'd like to get less information from a patient before you transport them?
MR. WHITLEY: It would be pertinent information. For instance, if somebody was complaining of chest pain and they had stents placed in their heart, we wouldn't talk about how they had their tonsils removed when they were 12.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. Fair enough. But getting more information is not going to negate the crucial information that you do get. Correct.
MR. WHITLEY: I mean, it certainly could in a critical stage if there was a critical patient. We wouldn't typically overburden passing off a report to a nurse or a doctor with non-pertinent information.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. It's not your testimony that getting less information is always better than getting more information. Is it?
MR. WHITLEY: I would say getting pertinent information is better than having —
MR. YANNETTI: That wasn't my question. My question was: is it your testimony that getting less information is always better than getting more information?
MR. WHITLEY: Sir, I would not agree with that. No.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. Thank you. Now, the medical history that was taken from Ms. Read listed her as having multiple sclerosis, right?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And you know that that's a chronic disease of the central nervous system.
MR. WHITLEY: It's my understanding.
MR. YANNETTI: And what does chronic mean?
MR. WHITLEY: I believe any disease lasting more than a certain amount of time — could be two years, three years, four years.
MR. YANNETTI: Persists for a long time or constantly recurs. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. That's my understanding.
MR. YANNETTI: And it's a disease that affects neurological muscle control. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. That's my understanding.
MR. YANNETTI: And, last question — it's also a progressive disease, which means it tends to get worse over time.
MR. WHITLEY: My understanding.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. Now, when you first interacted with Karen Read after you got to 34 Fairview and encountered that whole scene, it was clear to you that a major focus for her was whether John O'Keefe was alive or dead. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: She asked if somebody could survive after having been found in the snow without a jacket. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: From many hours. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And you mentioned something about hypothermia — that you assumed you may have been dealing with a hypothermia situation from earlier.
MR. WHITLEY: Well, she said that he had been out in the snow with no jacket on for many hours.
MR. YANNETTI: And you assumed hypothermia was your testimony, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: You are not qualified to diagnose hypothermia, are you?
MR. WHITLEY: I'm not a doctor.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And you don't know if your assumption about hypothermia was correct or incorrect. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Is — I mean, is my assumption correct?
MR. YANNETTI: My question is: as you testify here today, after having dropped off Karen Read at the hospital for that Section 12, you don't know if the assumption that you made — that you were dealing with a hypothermia situation — was correct or not. Is that right?
MR. WHITLEY: Well, they were certainly working on him at the hospital as a hypothermia patient.
MR. YANNETTI: You don't know if your assumption was correct or not, sir?
MR. WHITLEY: I guess I don't.
MR. YANNETTI: And you told her, in fact, that you could not speak to that. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: I'm sorry — to what?
MR. YANNETTI: In terms of how long somebody could survive outside. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: I couldn't speak to his condition is basically what I was trying to say to her.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. But she still persisted in asking you over and over if he was alive or dead. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: She wouldn't let that go. Is that fair to say?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And that was despite your not being able to give her an answer. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Again, we were just trying to sort of give her any hope, right?
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. So she kept asking and you were trying to give her hope that he could still be alive. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. Now, today you claimed that her demeanor had changed when you mentioned Kerry Roberts. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And the term that you used to describe her demeanor when you mentioned Kerry Roberts as being part of a support system — what term did you use? I'm sorry — when you just testified on direct examination, did you characterize the way that she reacted?
MR. WHITLEY: She was crying in her hands. And I said, "You know, it looks like you have a very strong support system." And she picked up her head — she had her face in her hands, she picked up her head out of her hands, looked at me and said, "Do you know Kerry Roberts?" And I said, "Matter of fact, I do." And she said, "Anybody who knows Kerry Roberts wouldn't say that about her."
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And you've previously described that in testimony last year as her being "snarky" — that was the term you used. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: But you were first interviewed by the police on February 8th of 2022. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: If that's what the report says. Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: About 10 days after this. About that. And the events of January 29th were fresh in your mind on February 8th of 2022. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: As fresh as they are today.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. So you do not allow that your memory was better on February 8th of 2022 regarding January 29th of 2022 — it wasn't better on February 8th than it is today is your testimony?
MR. WHITLEY: I would feel it's just as good.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. Your memory does not get better over time. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: For this case, it seemed to stick out to me.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. So are you testifying that your memory gets better over time?
MR. WHITLEY: No. No. No.
MR. YANNETTI: But that would be crazy, wouldn't it?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: In that February 8th, 2022 interview, you were asked about Kerry Roberts, right?
MR. WHITLEY: What — I'm sorry, what day?
MR. YANNETTI: February 8th of 2022 — you were asked about Kerry Roberts, right?
MR. WHITLEY: I do not recall if I was or was not.
MR. YANNETTI: You told the police that you knew Kerry Roberts from your neighborhood. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Okay. Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And you've testified today that she just lived 200 yards away from you, right around the corner, right?
MR. WHITLEY: About that.
MR. YANNETTI: And you told police that you had seen Kerry Roberts on scene at 34 Fairview when you got there. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: You also told police that Karen Read had told you about making statements about her wanting to die. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: But on February 8th of 2022, just 10 days after these events, you never mentioned to the police during that interview that Karen was snarky in any way. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: I don't know if I did or I didn't. I don't know if it would be in their report.
MR. YANNETTI: If you saw that report, would it refresh your memory as to whether or not you mentioned snarkiness?
MR. WHITLEY: I don't think I mentioned snarkiness that day. No.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. Well, that answers my question. Okay. But after that interview — and of course even after January 29th of 2022 — you went back to your neighborhood, the same neighborhood that you lived in with Kerry Roberts. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: Do you still live in that neighborhood?
MR. WHITLEY: I do.
MR. YANNETTI: Does Kerry Roberts still live there?
MR. WHITLEY: She does.
MR. YANNETTI: So you and Kerry Roberts have continued to live in the same neighborhood for years after January 29th. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: We have.
MR. YANNETTI: And before you ever encountered Karen Read that day, you had interacted with Kerry Roberts in the past, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Briefly. Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: Well, you were both on the same neighborhood Facebook page, were you not?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes. That's why I had volunteered to bring the fire truck to the — right. One time she had posted on that neighborhood Facebook page that she wanted to have a fire truck at the neighborhood block party. Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: Correct. And that's when you replied and volunteered that you would bring the fire truck to that block party as she requested. Correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And you also worked with Kerry Roberts on the Ponkapoag Civic Association, did you not?
MR. WHITLEY: I did not know. She worked on the board prior to my arrival on the board.
MR. YANNETTI: So you both worked on the same board, but just at different times.
MR. WHITLEY: Different times. Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. And — I think you had touched on this earlier. In addition to knowing Kerry Roberts, having been with the Canton Fire Department since 2006, there have been many times when you've worked in conjunction with the police. Correct.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: And in addition to the two police officers that you mentioned having seen at 34 Fairview on January 29th, that being Saraf and Mullaney, you know many other officers at the Canton Police Station.
MR. WHITLEY: I do.
MR. YANNETTI: And as you say, Canton's a small town, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Relatively.
MR. YANNETTI: People know each other.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: You also knew former state trooper Michael Proctor before you arrived at 34 Fairview.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. I did.
MR. YANNETTI: Michael Proctor actually was two years ahead of you in school, was he not?
MR. WHITLEY: He was.
MR. YANNETTI: And you learned at some point that your school classmate, Michael Proctor, was the lead investigator into the death of John O'Keefe, this case.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And in fact, when you spoke to the police in February of 2022, Michael Proctor was one of the troopers to interview you.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: You did not go to school with Karen Read, right?
MR. WHITLEY: No, not to my knowledge.
MR. YANNETTI: You didn't help coordinate neighborhood block parties with Karen Read, right?
MR. WHITLEY: Nope.
MR. YANNETTI: You were not in a civic association that Karen Read belonged to at any point.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. Nope.
MR. YANNETTI: She was a stranger to you on January 29th, 2022.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. She was a patient of mine. Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: Well, as far as you knew, she was an outsider to Canton.
MR. WHITLEY: I did not know that. I was —
MR. YANNETTI: You didn't live in the same neighborhood with her?
MR. WHITLEY: I'm not sure if we did or did not.
MR. YANNETTI: You had no personal contact with her either before or after January 29th of 2022.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. No.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. Now, as a result of your having gone to the scene, there's a patient care record that is generated.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. And on this issue of the snarkiness and the demonstration that you just did, there's a contemporaneous report of your team's observations from January 29th, right?
MR. WHITLEY: Are you referring to my partner's run report?
MR. YANNETTI: Yeah, the patient care report.
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And that patient care report is dated January 29th of 2022 and is timed at 9:03:34 a.m. Does that sound right?
MR. WHITLEY: Sounds about right.
MR. YANNETTI: And that 9:03:34 — from your knowledge of how patient care reports are generated, would that be the time that you arrived on scene or the time that the report is written?
MR. WHITLEY: I mean, I would have to see the exact time you're referring to, but it could be the time the call is closed, or it could be the time you finished the report. There could be multiple reports. I'm not exactly positive which report you're talking about.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. In any case, it was from that morning, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: Well, I assume so.
MR. YANNETTI: There was only one morning that you went to 34 Fairview.
MR. WHITLEY: Well, no, but there could be two reports. The engine has to write a report and the ambulance has to write a report, but they're both about that morning.
MR. YANNETTI: Correct.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: All right. Now, there are boxes to fill out on the patient care record.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: One of the boxes is primary impression.
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: What does primary impression mean?
MR. WHITLEY: That is just what we believe — not the patient's complaint, but what we believe the patient is suffering from.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And that is listed on the patient care record for Karen Read as a behavioral/psychiatric episode.
MR. WHITLEY: Yeah. So that's a box we check for just about any Section 12.
MR. YANNETTI: Sure. And of course that mentions nothing about snarkiness.
MR. WHITLEY: No, that is my partner's report.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. There's also a box for secondary impression.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: What is secondary impression?
MR. WHITLEY: That might be a secondary complaint. Most of the time, patients don't have a secondary complaint.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. But in this case, it's listed as anxiety/emotional upset.
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And again, that mentions nothing about snarkiness.
MR. WHITLEY: That's my partner's report. Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: There's also a box for signs and symptoms, right?
MR. WHITLEY: There is.
MR. YANNETTI: And nowhere in the signs and symptoms box is snarkiness mentioned.
MR. WHITLEY: No, I don't think that would be medically appropriate.
MR. YANNETTI: And then in the patient care record, it's recorded that Karen was found sitting in the front passenger's seat of a friend's car, crying and visibly upset, but cooperative. Right?
MR. WHITLEY: If that's my partner's words, yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And those words — actually, nowhere in the patient care record is it listed that she was snarky in any way.
MR. WHITLEY: Again, that would not be something we would put into a patient care report.
MR. YANNETTI: And you did not put it in, correct?
MR. WHITLEY: It was my partner's report and no, we did not put it in.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. And once Ms. Read agreed to go with you in the ambulance, it's fair to say she was still upset and crying.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. At times.
MR. YANNETTI: I may have a moment.
MR. WHITLEY: Sure.
MR. YANNETTI: Actually, if I can just get my glasses so that I can see. Thank you. Okay. You had just testified that you said at times she was upset and crying when she got in the ambulance. Correct.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: You testified on April 21st of 2022 before the grand jury, did you not?
MR. WHITLEY: I did.
MR. YANNETTI: And that was roughly 3 months after the events that you're testifying about today. And your memory back then was fresh, was it not?
MR. WHITLEY: Yes.
MR. YANNETTI: And you were asked the question: once she was in the back of the ambulance and she agreed voluntarily to go to the hospital, did she appear to calm down at that point? Do you remember that question?
MR. WHITLEY: I do.
MR. YANNETTI: And your answer was: "I mean she wasn't arguing against us at that point. I mean once she, you know, agreed to come with us voluntarily, I mean she was still upset, crying, you know, and talking on the phone." Do you remember that answer?
MR. WHITLEY: I do.
MR. YANNETTI: You didn't mention in that answer that it was only at times that she was crying and upset.
MR. WHITLEY: No.
MR. YANNETTI: Okay. The whole time from beginning to end, Ms. Read was constantly worried about John. Was she not?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. YANNETTI: You recall that she was on the phone at one point speaking to someone that she called Papa.
MR. WHITLEY: Correct. Correct.
MR. YANNETTI: Did you later learn that Papa was John O'Keefe Senior?
MR. WHITLEY: I am just learning that just now.
MR. YANNETTI: And in any case, you heard her say to Papa, "Is he dead? He's dead, isn't he?"
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. YANNETTI: You could hear on the other end of the line that Papa was saying something to her.
JUDGE CANNONE: The objection is sustained.
MR. YANNETTI: May I approach?
JUDGE CANNONE: The witness — or me?
MR. YANNETTI: Sidebar.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: I don't want to keep you folks in there till 4:30. It's been a long day. So I'm going to release you today and have you come back tomorrow. We'll make every effort to start right at 9 tomorrow. Please follow those cautions. Do not discuss this case with anyone. Don't do any independent research or investigation into this case. If you happen to see, hear, or read anything about this case, please disregard it and let us know, and be very careful on your social media. Okay. Thank you. Have a good night.
COURT OFFICER: All eyes, please. Follow me.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. So we're still in session. Court is still in session. Please be seated. All right. So I would like to move things along a little bit more expeditiously tomorrow. What would be very helpful to me, Mr. Brennan, are these clips? I haven't seen any of — I haven't watched any of anything on television about any of these. Do you have them all in one compilation that I can look at in advance? If you don't, you don't.
MR. BRENNAN: I thought we had provided it to the court. If we haven't, we will. May I have a moment?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sure. Is it 100 hours or something, or is it not?
MR. BRENNAN: We sent a share file, but it's my oversight. We should have brought in a hard copy for you as well.
JUDGE CANNONE: I don't know that I have a shared file. What was that box link on Monday that we sent?
MR. BRENNAN: I can put it on a zip drive as I should have, and I can —
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Because I couldn't open that. It needed an email and it didn't accept mine.
MR. BRENNAN: That — I didn't realize you didn't have access. We will get a zip file and —
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. You talk to Tori about it.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. Tori, you'll get it for me.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. The intention was that you'd have an advanced opportunity to look at them.
MR. BRENNAN: I'll fix that failure.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Have your associate talk with Tori.
MR. BRENNAN: I will.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. All right. Anything we need to know before tomorrow?
MR. BRENNAN: No, your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. We'll see you tomorrow.