Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveKevin O'Hara - Cross
282 linesMR. JACKSON: Good afternoon, Lieutenant.
MR. O'HARA: Good afternoon, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Uh, when you first arrived at the scene, was there crime scene tape up?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, no, there was not, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any barricade up at all?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, no, there was not.
MR. JACKSON: Was there any evidence that the crime scene had — was being secured at that time?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, there was no police presence on scene, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Um, so when you arrived, the scene had been left unsecured. Do you know how long it had been left unsecured?
MR. O'HARA: I do not, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So before you arrived at least — and before your presence was known — uh, for some time before you got there, that scene could have been accessed by anyone to your knowledge.
MR. O'HARA: Well, I think the weather played a good help to us with the scene security because with that being fresh undisturbed snow and with the man-tracking we do, we would be able to determine if anyone had accessed that area.
MR. JACKSON: Of course. Of course. But you don't have any personal knowledge of anybody actually securing that scene — for onlookers, bypassers, anybody that wanted access to it, they could have had it. Not that I'm aware of, sir. Okay. Um, you indicated that Lieutenant Tully first contacted you — not around but exactly at 2:32 p.m. Correct. That is correct, sir. At that time, your team was not stood up. Uh, in other words, you were not activated because that was an initial call by Lieutenant Tully, not an activation call. Correct. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: That's a courtesy notification, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And at that time, Lieutenant Tully had not received the proper protocol — the proper approvals through the protocol uh — to actually have your team activate and have your team dispatched. Yes, I think — well, he'll normally, when we get activated, before they start the process going through their chain of command, they'll call me just to see if we're available and if we could actually respond, instead of wasting other people's time calling us if I were to say no, we are already assigned on another mission at this time. Right. So around 2:53 you indicated that one of your subordinates, uh, Sergeant Simpson, uh, notified the rest of the team that get ready but we have not been given the green light. Correct. Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Building an availability list of who could respond. Okay. That was just a kind of a precursor, if you will, for lack of a better phrase, to make sure that you had the available personnel so when the green light — or if the green light came — you could activate. Correct. And to help start giving people the heads up to start shoveling the driveway. Like I said, as soon as I received that call from Lieutenant Tully, I hadn't shoveled my driveway yet. I went out and had to go clear, clean my driveway and my cruiser. The end of my driveway — we usually get plowed in by our plows. We had several feet of snow at the end of my driveway, sir. Lucky you. Yes. All right.
MR. O'HARA: Um, did Lieutenant Tully inform you in that first phone call that uh colleagues of his — Massachusetts State Police colleagues of his — were already en route to Dighton uh to retrieve or seize the SUV? Uh, he did not say that, sir. Did Lieutenant Tully inform you that uh Massachusetts State Police had actually contacted the Dighton Police Department for uh for their assistance
MR. JACKSON: In potentially seizing that SUV?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, he did not tell me that.
MR. JACKSON: Sir, did he indicate — you indicated that your conversation was at 2:32 — did he indicate that he had just gotten off the phone with Dighton PD at 2:31, just a minute prior?
MR. O'HARA: Our phone call is at 2:32, sir.
MR. JACKSON: I know that. I said 2:32.
MR. O'HARA: It's 2:32, and he had just gotten off the phone with Dighton PD at 2:31. Did he indicate anything like that? No, he did not.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So we do know that at that 2:30-ish hour you were not authorized to respond to the location at that point. None of your units were en route at that point.
MR. O'HARA: No, neither one of us had requested approval through our chain of command at that time, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you've already told us that you didn't head out until just after 4, sometime after 4 p.m.
MR. O'HARA: Uh, yes. My GPS data has me leaving my driveway at 4:13 p.m.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. Once you were at 34 Fairview, you arrived first, correct?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, no, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Oh, I'm sorry. I mistook that. Tell me who did arrive first.
MR. O'HARA: Trooper Beausoleil arrived at 4:54, and I pulled in just after him at 4:56.
MR. JACKSON: Sir, my mistake. When you first arrived, you were waiting for others of your team to arrive as well in their personal vehicles or their marked vehicles. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: They were still en route at that time. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: When you got there, you did not know at that point where you were going to be directed to search. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: I did not know, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All you knew was a residence and an address. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: As your team members arrived, were they arriving in personal vehicles, cruisers, or some combination thereof?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, they were all arriving in state-issued cruisers.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MR. O'HARA: So all seven of you arrived — seven total. Correct? Correct. We initially started at 8. One member was not able to get off the end of their street due to plowing. So we were one member short from the original dispatch.
MR. JACKSON: Understood. Lieutenant, when you arrived, given the fact that you did not know where you'd be searching, you've actually indicated previously that the flag pole, the fire hydrant, etc. — that part of the lawn, that part of the yard — was behind you as the cruisers pulled up and you parked your cruisers waiting for everybody to get there. Correct? When I arrived, I parked almost at the end of the driveway of that residence, sir. Okay. Was your tail facing the flag pole or was your nose facing the flag pole?
MR. O'HARA: Tail was facing the flag pole.
MR. JACKSON: So you pulled up to the driveway — I'm guessing from Chapman?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, north. Correct, sir. Yes, from Chapman.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So you pulled over to the edge of the driveway, sort of on the wrong side of the street, I'm guessing?
MR. O'HARA: Same side as 34 Fairview, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Understood. So the area, the grid area that you ultimately decided to search and ultimately were directed to search — that was all behind you.
MR. O'HARA: Uh, yes it was.
MR. JACKSON: And it was dark out, obviously.
MR. O'HARA: Uh, yes it was. Getting dark.
MR. JACKSON: It was dark. It was winter so it was dark. Okay. Your focus was certainly not on the area behind you at that point. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: What about your focus — it wasn't really anywhere, was it? Because you didn't know where you were going to search.
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Ultimately your team members began to arrive one by one, and each one of them — would they stay in their car or would they get out and come coordinate with you at your cruiser?
MR. O'HARA: No. As they arrived on scene, they would come out because Lieutenant Tully had already arrived on scene. He was technically the third member of the state police on scene.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MR. O'HARA: So once he got on scene, I was already out talking to him and I was marking off the area we were going to search.
MR. JACKSON: Understood.
MR. O'HARA: Ultimately he did direct you to a location behind you, which you were not currently focused on, toward the flag pole, the fire hydrant, you said. Yeah, I wasn't focused on any area at that time, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You marked the areas out that Lieutenant Tully directed you to with some sort of grid coordinates, or was it just sort of a mental grid?
MR. O'HARA: No, I was stepping it off in the area I wanted to search, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did you use any string or rope or anything like that to physically grid the area off?
MR. O'HARA: No, I just marked a line in the snow, sir, where I wanted to start and where we wanted to end.
MR. JACKSON: And you did that with footprints?
MR. O'HARA: No, with the shovel — made a mark where we wanted to start and end.
MR. JACKSON: I see.
MR. O'HARA: So sort of dragging a shovel in a line. Now, where the berm was, sir? I knocked the berm down. Made an obvious impression of where the shovel was.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. At the starting location — where ideally I wanted to end. Perfect. You indicated that the area that you were searching was relatively undisturbed snow. You said that in direct examination. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: It was undisturbed. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: But the street — everything from the berm in the street — had been plowed. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, to a point. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. And so that would be disturbed snow.
MR. O'HARA: Yeah. To a point. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And what was the point to where the snow that got plowed never — it all rose up, just like the end of your driveway would?
MR. O'HARA: There was a good 3 to 4-foot-high barrier on each side of the street. Once you were able to knock down that initial barrier of snow, the level of snow dropped down to the normal depths that you would have seen in anyone's front lawn at that time.
MR. JACKSON: Sir, and is that what you're calling the undisturbed portion of the snow?
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. O'HARA: He didn't indicate a color.
MR. JACKSON: Either way, sir, he did direct you to where he believed you should search. It was his direction that sort of gave you your grid coordinates. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: He indicated where the vehicle had been parked and where the victim's body had been located, and suggested that was the primary area to search.
MR. JACKSON: Did he tell you whether or not he knew from personal knowledge where John O'Keefe's body had been?
MR. O'HARA: He did not, sir.
MR. JACKSON: No.
MR. JACKSON: Did he tell you whether he had personal knowledge where any tail light material might be?
MR. O'HARA: He did not know, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Lieutenant Tully told you that you were going to be looking for a man's shoe — a sneaker of some sort, a shoe of some sort. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: He said sneaker. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And he told you that you'd be searching for plastic — red plastic — potentially from a tail light. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: I said tail light pieces. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did he indicate that some of them would be red, some might be clear — there might be a combination of the two?
MR. JACKSON: Did he tell you that he had any personal knowledge where an impact site might have been?
MR. O'HARA: He did not know.
MR. JACKSON: Did he tell you that he had personal knowledge that there had been an impact site at the location?
MR. O'HARA: No, he just said he believed the incident involved the vehicle.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. One of your goals when looking at the search location was to obviously remove the snow as methodically as you could. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You wanted to not only remove layers of snow but then ultimately expose the layer beneath it with as little disturbance as possible. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Sir, I think you noted that the plow had not plowed all the way to the curb.
MR. O'HARA: So the snow bank was sort of in the street, not in the yard — or at least a few inches from the curb line and not in the yard. Correct? Correct, sir. As I stated, as some of the responding members parked, they were thinking they were parking in a safe spot in the street and their cruisers wound up being stuck at the end of the night.
MR. JACKSON: And you and your team had some experience doing searches in snowy conditions, being from Massachusetts — missing person searches, I'm guessing.
MR. O'HARA: We've never been out for an evidence search in this specific type of conditions, but we have done missing person searches.
MR. JACKSON: So this was the first time you and your team had executed a search of this nature in these kinds of conditions for these kinds of items — in blizzard conditions. Yes. For an evidence search. Yes. But you did indicate on direct examination that although it was blizzard conditions and the winds were high — and we've learned that windy conditions sort of define a blizzard in some respects — the visibility was relatively good. Yeah, with our headlamps we had pretty decent visibility. I want to ask you a couple of questions about the techniques for conducting a search like this in some sort of snowfall.
MR. O'HARA: Obviously as a specialist in searches, one of the things that you put as the highest priority is documenting exactly where the search is conducted, what techniques are used to conduct the search, and what if anything is found and exactly where it's found. Correct? Uh, yes. Documentation of your search is important. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You'd also want to document the time that things are found. Correct? Uh, yes, you want those documented. And you'd want to document the relative locations between
MR. JACKSON: and among items that are found. How close are they to each other? How close are they or far are they from a stable landmark, a static landmark?
MR. O'HARA: Correct.
MR. O'HARA: So we will mark items, sir. Measuring in between distances, they do get stamped when we mark our items. Measuring them would be at the discretion of the investigators themselves.
MR. JACKSON: And obviously that would be among the best practices to clearly document how a search is conducted. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Another way to document the evidence, or the search, is to do it through either video evidence or photographic techniques. Right. Just photographing — forensic photographs of where things are found. Contextual photographs moving into close-up photographs. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: That would be at the discretion of the detective, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And in this case, that discretion lay with Lieutenant Tully. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yeah, he was the incident commander. Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated a number of hand tools that you brought with you to the search to make sure that you had the tools necessary to get through the snow and get to the items — if there were any items out there — to get to the items you were looking for. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you did in fact remove layer by layer of snow and sort of sift through it as best you could. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: That also included some shovels where a shovelful of snow might be gathered and then turned over. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. That was done somewhat methodically. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: Yes, it was, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you wanted to make sure that you weren't missing anything as you were digging through the top layers of snow and getting down to something closer to the surface. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And at that time, what was the level of snow, if you can estimate it? How much snowfall?
MR. O'HARA: I believe the area — and, you know, not living that far from that location myself — was anywhere from 15 to 18, up to maybe 20 inches in certain towns.
MR. JACKSON: And again, this is after 5:45, 5:48 in the evening of January 29th, when the first item was discovered at 5:45. Okay.
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Obviously, a search of this complexity, and with this many individuals, and with those conditions, required some level of significant coordination by you and your team. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You had to account for all the personnel who were there. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: That included — I'm going to go through a quick list — Bearden, Bosel, Carrier, Luis, O'Brien, O'Hara, and Biscardi. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So there were seven individuals, as well, Lieutenant, as seven vehicles to account for — to make sure you're not driving over the wrong areas, walking over the wrong areas, standing over the wrong areas. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And not only did you have to account for those seven officers, each of whom arrived in their own vehicles, you also had to make sure that those vehicles were positioned in the right spot to make sure you don't drive over the area that you need to search and might be impacted by your cars. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: After Lieutenant Tully arrived on scene, the remaining cruisers never came past the initial location of where we believe the incident occurred.
MR. JACKSON: Before he came on scene, the cruisers that were there were down toward the driveway, closer to where you were, and you of course were positioned with your back to the location that ultimately was searched. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So that was two of the seven cruisers.
MR. O'HARA: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Once you learned where you wanted to search, you literally had to sort of turn around — physically turn things around — to begin searching behind where you had originally positioned yourself. No fault of your own. You just didn't know where to go. You had to sort of turn around and go backward toward the area of the flag pole, away from the area of the driveway. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And so as you began to focus on the other side of the house, the other side of the driveway, you had to actually reposition a couple of the cruisers. You didn't have to, but you chose to reposition a couple of the cruisers to turn their lights back around. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: That is correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: At some point you've indicated that there were other individuals who you noticed were at the scene. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: Yes. There were non-SERT members on scene, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And those non-SERT members included — or they numbered at least five individuals, not including Lieutenant Tully. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: I believe that includes Lieutenant Tully, sir. I believe it was five total.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So five does include Lieutenant Tully. There were four others that were non-SERT members. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And those were members — I think you've earlier testified that those were members of either Massachusetts State Police or Canton Police, or both. Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: I believe it was both. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you did not recognize those individuals.
MR. O'HARA: I recognized one of the state police members. I believe a second one was also a state police member that I'm not familiar with. And then two other members that I believe were Canton police, but again not familiar with them.
MR. JACKSON: And these individuals — obviously it's dark. You're not paying attention to them. You're not paying attention to what they're doing. They probably have hats and hoods and gloves on, I'm guessing.
MR. O'HARA: Well, they didn't arrive on scene right away, so we were already well into our search before they even arrived on scene. The only one who was on scene originally was Lieutenant Tully.
MR. JACKSON: If you weren't paying close attention to those four officers, those additional four officers, how do you know exactly what time they arrived on scene?
MR. O'HARA: They weren't in the area we were searching. So they came on scene after we were already on our line searching, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So they may have been in the area, but you didn't see them until your line search had already begun, and you made note of them. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Correct. I don't know the exact time they arrived on scene, sir.
MR. JACKSON: But they weren't on scene when you started your search, or they weren't in your vision when they started your search.
MR. O'HARA: No, they weren't on scene, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But you don't know, as you sit here, you can't say what time they showed up.
MR. O'HARA: I do not know, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And did they come at your direction?
MR. O'HARA: They did not.
MR. JACKSON: Did they come at the direction of any of your staff members, any of your colleagues?
MR. O'HARA: No, we did not request them, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So they were there for some reason other than why you were there.
MR. O'HARA: That's correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: If I may have just a moment, your honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: These individuals — you noted they were either from, I think you said, two from Massachusetts State Police and two from Canton police, correct?
MR. O'HARA: Yeah. Including Lieutenant Tully, it would probably be three MSP and two Canton police, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, excluding Lieutenant Tully, who was working very closely with you — the other four individuals, were they in full uniform or plain clothes?
MR. O'HARA: Plain clothes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And your focus, once you began your search, once you stood up the team, turned your cars around and realized exactly the grid where you were going to search — that's where your focus was. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yeah, I was focused on our search area. Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And when you're searching a line, for instance, if it's a line that extends to your right or to your left, the search that you're conducting is literally right directly in front of you. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Well, you're always looking left or right because you're staying in line with your teammates. So you always have a full view of the line you're searching.
MR. JACKSON: Understood. I'm not saying that you look down and never look up again. But I'm saying that your focus — the main focus of your search — is directly in front of you. That's why you do a line search. So you can take small steps, search in front of you, move forward, search in front of you, as a line, as an almost a single entity moving forward. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: That is best practice. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: That's how you make sure you don't miss an overturned leaf that you need to overturn, that there might be a knife under, or a gun under, or something like that, or a bullet casing, something like that. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Or a tail light. Right.
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. So as your focus — your world sort of collapses a little bit — your focus is in front of you. You're obviously working with your team members left and right. You're moving forward very gently, very methodically, very technically as you move forward, and the whole line moves forward on that grid. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So you're not necessarily paying attention to what's happening behind you, off in the distance, in the dark, to your far left, to your far right. That's not what your focus is on at least at that moment. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: No, sir. Our focus is forward as we're moving forward into our search area.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. In addition to the five individuals — Lieutenant Tully included, and the other four — there was also another person that made contact with you from 34 Fairview. Correct.
MR. O'HARA: Yes. When we first arrived on scene, someone had exited the residence onto the front steps, front porch area — possibly of that mudroom.
MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
MR. O'HARA: Of that mudroom. So that right door, the exit — you know, the door closest to the garage.
MR. JACKSON: Sir, can you describe that person for us?
MR. O'HARA: It was an adult male wearing a hooded sweatshirt.
MR. JACKSON: Did that person approach you or one of your team members?
MR. O'HARA: No, he never left the front door area.
MR. JACKSON: Did he say anything to you or one of the team members?
MR. O'HARA: He asked if we were here for what happened earlier. We replied yes and he turned and went back inside the residence.
MR. JACKSON: And as you sit here, you don't know who that person is.
MR. O'HARA: I do not, sir. No.
MR. JACKSON: But he's a male.
MR. O'HARA: I'm guessing middle-aged. It was not a child, sir. It was definitely an adult male, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Adult male wearing a hooded sweatshirt.
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. You testified that you — you recovered — having a hard time speaking. It's been a long day. I apologize. Let's try that again. You testified that you recovered a piece of plastic first before you recovered the shoe, or do I have that backward?
MR. O'HARA: No, there was one piece of tail light located before the shoe, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Understood. You've also indicated that of the — I think you said six or seven total pieces of plastic that were found — that all of those pieces of plastic and the shoe were found basically right next to each other. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: I don't know the exact distances, but they weren't too far apart. Some several inches to others maybe a foot or two. I don't know the exact distances, sir. Without assigning an exact measurement down to the millimeter — Lieutenant, you've earlier indicated that all of the pieces and the shoe, relative to each other, were found within a foot or so of each other. Correct? Eyeball again, as the distance I just said, sir — from inches to maybe a couple of feet. I know they all are geo-marked with exact coordinates that could be measured out at a later time, which again would have been at the purview of the detectives, but we did not measure them. All eyeball that night.
MR. JACKSON: Understood. When I say — and it may have been a bad question on my part, Lieutenant, and if it was I apologize — when I say within a foot of each other, I don't mean a foot apart. All of them, you've earlier testified, would be inside of a foot total. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: Feet. Now, I don't think they'd be quite that close, sir. I think they were maybe in between each item, sir. Or close to it.
MR. JACKSON: I have just a moment, Your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: I know this isn't necessarily a memorization contest about your prior testimony, but do you remember testifying about this specific issue — here I go again, I can't speak — this specific issue about a year ago at another — I'm sorry — back in 2022, at a grand jury?
MR. O'HARA: Yes, I did, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Do you remember exactly how you described where everything was, relative to each other — as a matter of fact, at the grand jury — relative to each other? Do you remember how you testified exactly?
MR. O'HARA: I believe I said within a few inches or a foot away. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You have an excellent memory. Seriously, you rattled off times and dates like I've never seen before. So — it's exactly what you said. So within a few inches of each other, maybe a foot, is what you said. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: That's what I said. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So if it's maybe within a foot — this is an 11-by-8-and-a-half piece of paper. Maybe an area a little larger than this. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. As you found items of evidence, did you alert Lieutenant Tully to that specific piece of evidence?
MR. O'HARA: Yes. So I was not one of the members who found any of the evidence, but as my team members located something, we would halt the line. Lieutenant Tully was a short distance behind our line. We would get his attention. We would cease our operations until he informed us that he felt it was properly documented. And ultimately, Lieutenant Tully was the person responsible for documenting that item.
MR. JACKSON: Is that right?
MR. O'HARA: That is, sir. We fall under the incident command structure. He technically took the lead as the incident commander that night, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And he did that through photography?
MR. O'HARA: Yes, sir. So you saw him taking pictures of the items in their place once they were found. Correct?
MR. JACKSON: Yeah, I believe he was the one taking photographs, sir.
MR. O'HARA: And by definition, Lieutenant, as a search like this is being conducted, unfortunately, moving snow means possibly moving the items themselves. Correct? Potentially, yes, sir. They might end up in a shovel full of snow. You turn it upside down. That's not where the piece of evidence was to begin with. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: It's been moved at that point. But in this case, nearly all of the — well, all of the pieces that you did find, including the shoe, were nearly next to each other — meaning within inches of one another. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: I don't know the exact distance again, sir. Ballpark, eye distance. But again, that is why we provided the GPS coordinates of each location, because we did stamp those with a handheld GPS as we found items of evidence. And all those locations were turned over with our report to be measured at the desire of the detectives.
MR. JACKSON: Sir, certainly using that very impressive memory of yours — your memory back in May of 2022, May 5th of 2022 — was that they were within inches of each other?
MR. O'HARA: I believe that's what I stated. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Ultimately, you indicated that the search — after about six or seven pieces were found as well as the shoe — the search was suspended just after 6:00. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: Approximately 6:15 or so, we stopped. We had gone, like I stated earlier, approximately 8 to 10 feet further south on the row without recovering any other pieces of tail light. We knew we had already located the sneaker, so we decided to suspend the search at that time until possibly a future date.
MR. JACKSON: And you were never called back out to the scene by Lieutenant Tully or anybody else. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: No, we were not, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And did you become aware that over the next days and weeks — several weeks — there would be 40 more pieces of tail light claimed to be recovered at the scene? Did you become aware of that or no?
MR. O'HARA: I was aware other pieces were located. I did not know that was the number, and I don't know exactly when I became aware of that. It was probably much later on, possibly at this location, when I learned that information.
MR. JACKSON: Sir. And you don't know, as you sit here, you don't know whom it was that recovered those additional pieces. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: No, I've never seen the evidence log, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you don't know when those additional pieces were claimed to have been recovered?
MR. O'HARA: I do not know.
MR. JACKSON: When Lieutenant Tully and you had a conversation about shutting down the scene, was Lieutenant Tully's comment to you — after those first few pieces were found — that he was, quote, very satisfied that you had recovered everything that you were going to recover from that night, from that search?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Brennan asked you about the conversation that you had with Lieutenant Tully to shut the scene down — to clear the scene. Correct?
MR. O'HARA: Yes. So, we conducted a debrief and I gave him, again as I mentioned earlier, we provide a probability of detection. I tell him what the chances are. I think we found our items we were looking for and we determined to suspend the search.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember testifying last year that Lieutenant Tully indicated that he was very satisfied with what was found?
MR. O'HARA: I don't know if I used the word "very satisfied," but he was satisfied that evening that we had found everything we were going to find that night.
MR. JACKSON: Sir, may I have just a moment?
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember exactly what you indicated — Lieutenant Tully's words were, as you sit here?
MR. O'HARA: I believe yes, he was satisfied with the search. I just don't know if he used the word "very satisfied" or not, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Would it refresh your recollection to take a look at your transcript?
MR. O'HARA: I'm sure it will, sir. It's the one thing you didn't remember.
MR. JACKSON: May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: Highlighted portion, Lieutenant. Thank you, sir. I'm just going on the date. Is this from last year or would this be from the grand jury?
MR. O'HARA: Sir, June of last year.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Yes, sir.
MR. O'HARA: So, it does state here that I stated he was very satisfied with the search.
MR. JACKSON: Refreshes your recollection that that was the word that he used — or at least you remember him using at that time?
MR. O'HARA: Yeah, I believe so, to the best of my recollection, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Lieutenant. May I have just a moment?
JUDGE CANNONE: You are?
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Lieutenant, there was one other thing that I wanted to ask you about, which is — you had indicated to Lieutenant Tully at some point, um, close to 6:00 p.m. or so, it would be helpful if you and your team had a photograph of what it was you were looking for.
MR. O'HARA: Correct. Yeah. I believe after we found the first piece or two, I asked him if he had a photograph that we could look at, just to see how large of a piece we were looking for, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. Right. So, timing-wise, if you found the first piece at 5:45 — the first piece or two, maybe two or three or four minutes later after that, maybe 5 minutes later — so let's place it at 5:50, close to 6, something like that.
MR. O'HARA: Yeah, probably between 5:45 and 5:50 possibly, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you said to him at the time, it'd be helpful if we had a photograph of what it is we're looking for.
MR. O'HARA: Correct. Yeah. I said that would help. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And Lieutenant Tully told you that the vehicle — he did not have a photograph because it was still en route, being transported to Canton?
MR. O'HARA: Uh, he did say he did not have a photograph and it was being towed back.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Thank you, Lieutenant.
MR. O'HARA: Thank you, sir.