Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveTim Nuttall - Redirect/Recross
298 linesMR. BRENNAN: [unintelligible] firefighter Nuttall. The video the defense just showed you, did you notice any differences between that video and when I showed it to you, in that it doesn't have the time on it?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes.
MR. BRENNAN: Those were two different time frames of that video. And when we spoke about when the defendant said to you, "I hit him. I hit him," that wasn't shown to you in that video just now, was it?
MR. NUTTALL: No, it was not.
MR. BRENNAN: So if we go back, will you be able to explain where you came from and firefighter Flatley came from and when you first went over to John O'Keefe?
MR. NUTTALL: Sure.
MR. BRENNAN: With the court's permission. Miss Gilman, if you could start that video. I think it is 611, please. Now, stop it there. Do you see that this exhibit has a timestamp on the top?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay, please continue. [unintelligible] Could you stop, please? Do you see the red lights on the left?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Is that when you believe that you first arrived?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: And that note says 6:10:5. Could you continue please, Miss Gilman? Please watch to the left. Stop, please. Is that when you first arrive and walk over to help John O'Keefe?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir. That's me.
MR. BRENNAN: I'll note that the timestamp is 6:11:21. Okay, continue. Please stop, please. Did you see firefighter Flatley come after you?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Was any of this shown to you during those questions?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir. No.
MR. BRENNAN: Continue, please. Stop, please. Okay. Do you see the defendant in that screen?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you see her moving from right to left towards you?
MR. JACKSON: Objection as to form.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. What direction do you see her running in that screen?
MR. NUTTALL: She's running towards where the three of us are grouped.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. Please continue. Stop, please. Is it at that time the defendant said to you that she hit him?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: And you remember that?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. I'm done with the tape. Thank you very much. Now, you were asked questions about your memory.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. When you were asked questions about Trooper Proctor, when you were saying that you didn't remember, were you referring to the conversation with Trooper Proctor or were you suggesting you didn't remember what happened that morning?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't remember the interview with Trooper Proctor. I remember it happened. I don't remember the substance of what was discussed entirely. And I remember — we discussed that morning.
MR. BRENNAN: But do you know if that conversation was recorded or just a conversation between you and the trooper?
MR. NUTTALL: I do not know if it was recorded.
MR. BRENNAN: You asked questions. I want to ask you about questions on Mr. O'Keefe. You mentioned that there was some type of blood clotting on the back of his head.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. You noticed there were abrasions on his right arm.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: You noticed there was a hematoma on the right side of his head.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you see any bruising on his right knee?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't recall, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Did it stand out to you that all of his injuries — all of them that you saw, other than the cut on the back of the head — that they were all on his right side?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you notice any hematomas on his left side?
MR. NUTTALL: I did not.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you notice any scratches or abrasions on his left side?
MR. NUTTALL: I did not.
MR. BRENNAN: Did you notice any marks that would be consistent with an altercation on the left side of his body?
MR. NUTTALL: I did not.
MR. BRENNAN: You were asked about the cause, and you said that you don't know the cause. You weren't there, were you?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: You were asked if it was consistent with being punched, and you said it could be.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Could it be consistent with being clipped by a car?
MR. JACKSON: Objection. Objection as to form.
MR. BRENNAN: You were asked questions about clothing.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: And you had at one point said you thought that Mr. O'Keefe was wearing a winter jacket. Do you have any memory — when you first got there, do you have any memory whether there were any towels wrapped around Mr. O'Keefe's head?
MR. NUTTALL: I remember there was a white cloth of some sort on the scene.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. And when you were asked about your memory regarding the clothing, was the clothing of what was utmost importance to you at that time?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: And why is that?
MR. NUTTALL: I was again focused on Mr. O'Keefe's airway and ventilation.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. And when you were asked about the clothing, do you remember if you added anything else about your certainty or uncertainty about clothing when you previously gave a statement or testimony?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe when I testified last year, I did note — I had no — I was — I had no part in removing any articles of clothing or anything like that. That was not my job in the back of the truck.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you remember any recognition of the fact whether you were certain or not about clothing?
MR. NUTTALL: Repeat the question, sir. Sorry.
MR. BRENNAN: Is there anything that refreshes your memory about what you had said about clothing?
MR. JACKSON: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Ask a different question.
MR. BRENNAN: You had mentioned that you had some difficulty about clothing. Do you remember what you had previously said?
MR. NUTTALL: I remember there was some difficulty getting the individual's fingers through clothing just because they were so cold. They were difficult to manipulate. They really were not conducive to getting clothing off easily.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. You met with me three times?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: I had not met you before any of your prior testimonies, had I?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you remember meeting with me and discussing this case with me?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you remember me asking you to tell me what you remember?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. BRENNAN: Do you remember what I told you about testimony when you come into court?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: What would I tell you?
MR. NUTTALL: I remember we discussed that — just tell the truth.
MR. BRENNAN: Did I tell you that it doesn't matter — there is no side? Doesn't matter if it helps or hurts, that you just tell the truth?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. BRENNAN: Did I ever suggest to you that you should stick to a story?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Did I ever suggest to you that you should offer your testimony in any certain way?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: When I talked to you, did I ever ask you to say anything about your testimony to this jury?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Other than what?
MR. NUTTALL: Speak to the jury.
MR. BRENNAN: Did I need to tell you to tell the truth?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: And in telling the truth, did the defendant say to you, "I hit him. I hit him"?
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir. Three times.
MR. BRENNAN: And in fact, do you remember — in addition to her saying, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him," when you asked her the question, kneeling down over John O'Keefe's body, do you remember if you ever talked about other times that she said it, not to you?
MR. NUTTALL: I do not.
MR. BRENNAN: The answer is I do not. Next question. Okay. Do you remember testifying previously in this case?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. Do you remember at all discussing whether or not — after she left you — whether or not the defendant was still talking and speaking? I'm sorry, sir. Repeat the question. Do you remember — after the defendant left you and made that statement to you — did you hear her speak to other people after you?
MR. NUTTALL: I knew I heard her having conversations in the background, but that was not my focus at that time.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. And during those conversations in the background, did you hear her talk about that same issue again?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe she said it several times, but the three times she said it to me were what stuck out to me.
MR. BRENNAN: Okay. And when she said it to other people, it wasn't directly to you.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
JUDGE CANNONE: So, watch the form of the question, Mr.— Objection.
MR. BRENNAN: When she said it to other people, do you know who she said it to?
MR. NUTTALL: I do not.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll allow it.
MR. NUTTALL: So, the answer is I do not.
MR. BRENNAN: I'm sorry. Do you remember when she said it other times, who she said it to?
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to see counsel at sidebar for this.
MR. BRENNAN: Sir, after the defendant came over to you and spoke and then left, do you remember hearing her make further statements?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: And do you remember her making further statements similar?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. BRENNAN: To the statement to you?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: Could you share with the jury what you remember her saying, not to you, but after she left you?
MR. NUTTALL: I remember hearing "I hit him" several other times. Again, not directed to me, just kind of off in the background. I'd like to reiterate, we were really focused on the patient at that point. We were trying to provide care.
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So now after Mr. Brennan asks you a few questions, now you remember her saying, "I hit him" a bunch more times. Correct.
MR. NUTTALL: I remember hearing it in the background several other times.
MR. JACKSON: Really?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Never mentioned that on direct examination, did you?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't remember being asked about it, sir. I remember saying what was asked to me.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked, "Did you ever hear the defendant, Miss Read, say anything about 'I hit'?" And your answer was, "She said to me in answer to my question, 'I hit him. I hit him. I hit him,' three times." And that's it. To me, you didn't clarify that. Oh my god, she's running around like a chicken with her head cut off, screaming, "I hit him," and telling? everybody else under the sun.
MR. NUTTALL: It was again, it was behind me in the background as I was providing patient care. Again, that was not my focus.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So, you didn't really hear her say anything in the background, because you weren't focused on that, right?
MR. NUTTALL: I remember hearing a generalized commotion in the background, but again, that was not our focus.
MR. JACKSON: So generalized commotion is very different than hearing her say "I hit him" to other people. Correct. You'd agree with that?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So what you actually heard was the chaos and the commotion of a chaotic scene.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: In the background.
MR. NUTTALL: In the background as you focused on your patient care.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Yes, sir. Okay. Not specific words coming out of my client's mouth.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: To the question that I posed. Do you— you're right, we're off that question. Okay. That question I got.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Triple "I," correct? But with regard to what Mr. Brennan just asked you, the generalized commotion — to use your phrase —
MR. NUTTALL: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: In the background, you didn't hear any specific words coming out of my client's mouth, did you?
MR. NUTTALL: I heard "I hit him." But again, it was in the background and it was not my focus.
MR. JACKSON: Well, why didn't you say that on direct? That's kind of an important point. It's why you're here.
MR. NUTTALL: Again, if it was neglected on my part, it was not intentional. Not intentional to neglect that part for the jurors on direct examination.
MR. JACKSON: No, sir. Certainly not intentional to neglect that part of your testimony on cross-examination.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: But you decided to bring it up on direct — I'm sorry, on recross examination when Mr. Brennan is asking you questions again.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. It was asked of me.
MR. JACKSON: Yes. And it was after, of course, that your new statement — that you've never testified to before ever — is this generalized commotion included a bunch of "I hit him"s in the background.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And that comes after you saw the video that clearly shows that when you describe having heard this statement, my client was nowhere around you. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: That segment of the video that you showed me. Yes. That was not the time frame in which she said that to me.
MR. JACKSON: Well, that was the time frame when Flatley was giving CPR, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: He was doing CPR prior to that as well.
MR. JACKSON: Really?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Well, you just testified that you saw him standing up in a big yellow jacket and then kneel down and start giving CPR. We just watched that video.
MR. NUTTALL: But again, the clip of the video that you showed me, that was not the segment in which you said that to me.
MR. JACKSON: Well, that's what you're saying now. But what I'm asking is you described a very distinctive scene, a very specific scene.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir. I remember it vividly.
MR. JACKSON: She said "I hit him" when Flatley was down giving CPR and you were kneeling down giving airway support and he was doing rhythmic CPR chest compressions.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir. That's what happened.
MR. JACKSON: And then I showed you that very scene, didn't I?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, but you showed me that clip prior to that.
MR. JACKSON: I showed you the very scene that you described where Flatley gets down and starts chest compressions and never stops until the gurney is taken off the frame of the camera — to the — to the — Isn't that what I showed you?
MR. NUTTALL: That is a question. Can you do it again?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. I don't know if I can do it again. I showed you the scene where firefighter Flatley gets down on his knees, begins chest compressions, and never stops until that gurney is taken off camera, off frame into the ambulance. That's the clip I showed you.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. That's the clip you showed me.
MR. JACKSON: And that's exactly when you described your vivid memory from three and a half years ago. That's exactly the scene that you described when my client supposedly said "I hit him" to you.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Again, the clip that you showed me, that was not when it was said. That segment that you showed, that was not when it was said. It was said prior to that when the three of us were together. So, Flatley was not giving chest compressions then. He — the CPR was a continuous effort throughout the resuscitation, but
MR. JACKSON: But we saw him start it. Officer — Firefighter Nuttall, we saw him start it. We saw him walk into the frame, kneel down, and begin the chest compressions, didn't we?
PARENTHETICAL: [objection]
MR. JACKSON: Just a question. Sure. Sure. Do you need to see that clip again?
MR. NUTTALL: We did.
MR. JACKSON: And at no point at that time or after did my client even approach you, did she?
MR. NUTTALL: In that clip, she did.
MR. JACKSON: What?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, please.
JUDGE CANNONE: We're not going to show a video again. We've seen two videos.
MR. NUTTALL: Which one is marked?
MR. JACKSON: The one with the time stamp at the top. It's the exact same video. One has a time stamp, one doesn't. Just to be clear, you described a very detailed scene in which firefighter Flatley got down on the ground on his knees and began CPR.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: We saw a clip that played fully through.
MR. NUTTALL: Mhm.
MR. JACKSON: Starts and stops, but it played fully through.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes, sir. That was true and accurate video of what happened that day.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: That morning.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And from the time firefighter Flatley began his CPR, he never stopped, all the way through until the gurney was taken off the camera.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: You also described very clearly before you saw the video that the time when my client walked over and you had this dialogue, you heard this statement. It was during the time that firefighter is giving the CPR, right? You describe it.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: But when we actually see firefighter Flatley giving the CPR, as per your description, at no time did my client walk over and have a conversation with you. Did she?
MR. NUTTALL: She did in the video, in the portion that Mr. Brennan played you.
MR. JACKSON: Was firefighter Flatley giving CPR at that point? As I said previously, was he or was he not? Yes or no?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to let the witness answer the question.
MR. NUTTALL: Firefighters Kelly and Flatley were trading off CPR. Tony started doing CPR and it was passed off at one point to firefighter Kelly. Firefighter Kelly at that time was a BLS EMT. Firefighter Flatley was a paramedic. They're going to move towards firefighter Kelly performing CPR because at that time his skill set was not as advanced as firefighter Flatley's — as Tony's. But they did switch off. That is a routine cardiac arrest. We switch off compressions.
MR. JACKSON: But the video that Mr. Brennan showed you was earlier in time, a few seconds or a minute or two earlier. Yes, sir. You'd agree with that, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: I would.
MR. JACKSON: And firefighter Flatley had not begun CPR, had he?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't believe so.
MR. JACKSON: That's right. He hadn't. But that's the time that my client walked over in your general area.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Before CPR was started, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: CPR was started immediately.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sir, can we wrap this up?
MR. JACKSON: I don't know if we can, Judge.
JUDGE CANNONE: Give you a couple more minutes.
MR. JACKSON: Do you understand the confusion?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained. All right, couple more questions on this.
MR. JACKSON: The video that Mr. Brennan showed you.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you pointed to and said, "Oh, that's the time when she walked over and said the statement." Yes, sir. Remember that?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Firefighter Flatley was not even kneeling down giving CPR, was he, at that point?
MR. NUTTALL: No, I —
MR. JACKSON: The answer is yes or no.
MR. NUTTALL: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. He was not. Later, as the video continues to run, at some point we see firefighter Flatley enter the screen, kneel down in that bright reflective yellow jacket and begin CPR.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Yes, sir. You had previously said that when you heard the statement and she walked over to you, it was when firefighter Flatley was giving CPR. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And at no point, you'll agree, we just played the video. At no point after he started giving CPR did my client come anywhere near you. Isn't that what the video shows?
MR. NUTTALL: That was the segment that you showed me.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated on recross — I'm sorry, on redirect — that Mr. O'Keefe did not have any injuries to the left side of his body.
MR. NUTTALL: Not that I recall.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that in addition to the egg on the right side of his head, he also had a black eye on the left side?
MR. NUTTALL: I remember that the swelling had started to — it's referred to kind of as raccoon eyes, as a bruising of both eyes. Battle signs. Do you remember saying in answer to the question — did it look like, in addition to the egg on the right side of his head, in the front, did he also have a black eye on the left side? Your answer is, if memory serves correct, yes. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So it's not true that he didn't have any injuries on the left side of his body or face.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. That swelling kind of migrates over time to both sides. That is a common occurrence for both eyes to be swollen.
MR. JACKSON: Did he have an injury to the left side of his face?
MR. NUTTALL: He did not.
MR. JACKSON: Did he have a black left eye?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, he did.
MR. JACKSON: Would you consider a black eye an injury?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Let me ask you the question again, then. Did he have an injury to the left side of his face?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Good. Good. One last question. You indicated that it was a chaotic scene outside on that front yard.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Fire engines, ambulances, patrol vehicles, engines running, diesel engines, flashing lights, people screaming, people talking over the howling wind. Correct.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did you ever see the homeowner turn off the front door?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: You don't recall or you didn't?
PARENTHETICAL: [sidebar — gap approx. [6:20:02]
JUDGE CANNONE: to 6:22:34]
MR. NUTTALL: I have no idea who the homeowner is.
MR. JACKSON: And you never saw anybody come out front of the house?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: That's all I have.
MR. BRENNAN: It's all one issue. Briefly.
JUDGE CANNONE: I want to see counsel at the bar.
MR. BRENNAN: Sir, in Mr. Jackson's questions, he asked if you had ever said that you heard the defendant say, "I hit him," separate from when she approached you. Do you remember previously testifying that you heard her saying, "I hit him," in the background, separately from you?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: You remember testifying that before under oath?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. BRENNAN: In court?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
JUDGE CANNONE: Anything, Mr. Jackson?
MR. JACKSON: Can I just — a second? I'm sorry. Thank you. Yes. Just a quick question, firefighter Nuttall — when you were asked to recite your memory of that day on February 8th, 2022, just 10 days after this incident, did you ever say that you heard in the background, "I hit him," over and over again?
PARENTHETICAL: [Unclear]
MR. BRENNAN: , could I first? I did have an exhibit I would like to introduce and play for the jury.
MR. NUTTALL: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: All right. When you testified at the grand jury — last question. When you testified at the grand jury, did you ever say that?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't recall.
MR. JACKSON: But again, your memory is better now than it was then.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Sorry if I — Thank you.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Your next witness, Mr. Brennan.
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you. The Commonwealth calls Kerry Roberts.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: And this is clip two.
MR. JACKSON: No objection from the defense.
JUDGE CANNONE: No, we're not playing. And you're marking this as an exhibit?
MR. BRENNAN: Yes, your honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Do you have something for the court reporter to mark?
MR. BRENNAN: We can put it on a zip drive. We can discuss collecting all the clips and putting them on the same zip drive, or we can use different zip drives — whatever the court's preference is. So, we need something. So, we need something physical. You can play it and then we'll mark it. Miss Gilman, do you have a separate device? Jim, is that right? Thank you. I can have this marked, your honor. Thank you.
UNKNOWN: Okay.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right, Miss Roberts, please.
MR. BRENNAN: Thank you. We'd like to play this first and then call.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay.
MR. BRENNAN: I'm sorry. Thank you, Ron.
MR. BRENNAN: [video clip playing] — time they come back to you and stuff like how much I remember it, but I question, do I remember it? Because it's been — we've lived so much. I mean, when I see the video of me driving from the waterfall — like what I just described, tapping the brakes when I cross the intersection, Washington over Sherman Street — do I actually remember that I was kind of slowly proceeded through that green light? No, I don't actually remember that. But I've seen the video so many times that you then question — did I remember on my own, or was my memory jogged? But I also wondered, did I say, "Could I have hit him?" Or was it told to me that I said, "I hit him," and I knew I never could have said that. So the closest I must have said was, "Did I hit him?"
MR. BRENNAN: I know I said, "I hit him," but did I really say it as many times as law enforcement's claiming I said it? end video clip
MR. BRENNAN: Um, thank you.