Commonwealth v. Read — Trial ArchiveTim Nuttall - Cross
620 linesMR. JACKSON: Thank you, Your Honor. May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes, please.
MR. JACKSON: Good morning — Good afternoon, Firefighter Nuttall.
MR. NUTTALL: Good afternoon, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Nice to see you again.
MR. NUTTALL: You as well.
MR. JACKSON: Before your testimony this morning, how many conversations had you had with any member of the prosecution team in anticipation of your testimony today?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe it was three.
MR. JACKSON: When were those?
MR. NUTTALL: I could not give you dates off the top of my head.
MR. JACKSON: Give me a time frame. Within the last 3 weeks, in the last three months, last three days?
MR. NUTTALL: Within the last three weeks, I believe, one the week after that, and then one last night.
MR. JACKSON: Last night — what did you discuss? Let's take them in order. First of all, who did you meet with three weeks ago?
MR. NUTTALL: I met with Mr. Brennan and his staff.
MR. JACKSON: And when you say his staff, who else?
MR. NUTTALL: I honestly couldn't tell you, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Mr. Lally?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Male, female?
MR. NUTTALL: One female, one — I believe a state trooper.
MR. JACKSON: Had you ever met Trooper Tully previously?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir. Actually, I believe that was him. It was Trooper Tully.
MR. JACKSON: Whom you've met with several times, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Prior to that, I believe only once. Once or twice. He was the one that — well, he has formally
MR. JACKSON: Interviewed you previously, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe he arranged the meetings with Mr. Brennan, but beyond that, I can't speak to.
MR. JACKSON: What did you all discuss 3 weeks ago?
MR. NUTTALL: The first meeting — going in order — it was mostly just kind of an introduction. I had not met Mr. Brennan yet. I really didn't know him. So it was mostly that and then just seeing where we were at with testimony, going over previous testimony in that sort of realm.
MR. JACKSON: Prior to today, how many times have you testified under oath concerning the incident on January 29th, 2022?
MR. NUTTALL: Once at a grand jury hearing and once last year.
MR. JACKSON: All right. As a matter of fact, last year in this courtroom.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did you look over your testimony at the grand jury 3 weeks ago during that meeting?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: What about the testimony from last year?
MR. NUTTALL: We did go over the testimony from last year. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Were there any issues that Mr. Brennan or anybody else in that meeting brought up concerning any of your testimony?
MR. NUTTALL: There was just a question of how many times the "I hit him, I hit him" came up. It was three times.
MR. JACKSON: And were you advised that that's not what you said at your testimony last year?
MR. NUTTALL: Two times.
MR. JACKSON: What was that?
MR. NUTTALL: You said it was two times last year. I honestly can't recall, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But you just saw that — or you just read that — and went over that 3 weeks ago.
MR. NUTTALL: I believe so, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Yeah. But you can't remember, as you sit here today — just 3 weeks ago — what you all discussed in terms of how many times you previously testified that you heard the phrase "I hit him." You previously testified to two, but now it was three.
MR. NUTTALL: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: Your memory is clearer now than it was, for instance, a year ago when you testified.
MR. NUTTALL: Repeat that.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Your memory is clearer now as you sit here — that it was three times you heard that — than it was a year ago when you testified that it was two times.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Does your memory get better with time? Generally, your memory. I'm not talking about the royal you. I'm talking about you, in certain settings.
MR. NUTTALL: I mean, there are certain things about different aspects that I recall better than others.
MR. JACKSON: Does your memory tend to get better or does it fade over time? That's my question.
MR. NUTTALL: It can fade over time, but it depends on the context.
MR. JACKSON: But in this case, you're telling this jury that your memory is better now than it was a year ago when you testified about the exact same circumstance.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You then met about a week after that, which would be two weeks ago.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Who did you meet with then?
MR. NUTTALL: The same group.
MR. JACKSON: And what did you discuss at that meeting?
MR. NUTTALL: Again, just prior testimony. And that was really the gist of it.
MR. JACKSON: Tell me the specifics of the prior testimony that you —
MR. NUTTALL: Again, it was how many times we had talked about saying "I hit him, I hit him." Again, it was three times. And then there was also the video that was just played — was played for me.
MR. JACKSON: I'll take the video in just a second. If y'all had met 3 weeks ago and you indicated to Mr. Brennan that it was actually three times, not two times, that you heard the "I hit him," why did you need to discuss it again a week later to verify the three times versus two times?
MR. NUTTALL: Not sure, sir. That was just the way that the conversation went. I just again repeated what I said and what I remember from that morning.
MR. JACKSON: Well, tell me about that conversation. Did Mr. Brennan say anything like, "Well, are you really sure that she said it three times?"
MR. NUTTALL: It was — that morning — what was said to me. And I said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." That was how it went that morning and that was how I remember it.
MR. JACKSON: And did Mr. Brennan say, "Well, that's not consistent with how you've testified previously concerning the number of times you heard the 'I hit him' phrase."
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir. He did say that. He acknowledged that I had said it twice. However, again, as I mentioned, it was said three times to me.
MR. JACKSON: So now you do remember — last year — that you only said that it was repeated twice.
MR. NUTTALL: One more time, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So now you do recall that last year when you testified, it was inconsistent with how you're testifying today. Let me put it that way.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. I believe I said "I hit him, I hit him" — twice — on the stand last year.
MR. JACKSON: Right. And if you're saying "I hit him" three times instead of twice, that, Firefighter Nuttall, is inconsistent with your testimony today.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. But that is how it went that morning.
MR. JACKSON: Sorry. Okay. That's not my question. Let me see if I can do it again. So I'm asking you — if you testified last year —
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: — that you heard the phrase twice, and now a year goes by and you're testifying in front of this jury this year that you heard it three times, those two statements are inconsistent with one another.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did you talk at the meeting two weeks ago about any other inconsistencies with your testimony?
MR. NUTTALL: Not to my knowledge, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did — well, you were there, and you say "not to my knowledge," meaning —
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir. We did not.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So it was just about the number of times that you heard the phrase "I hit him."
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. You cleared that up in the two meetings — three weeks ago and two weeks ago. What did you talk about last night?
MR. NUTTALL: Mostly just making sure that everything was as it had been. And by that I mean it was three times, and that we were continuously making sure that everything was the way that it had happened that morning.
MR. JACKSON: Everything was the way that Mr. Brennan wanted it to be.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir. the way that — I remember it and I recall it happening.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So he asked you three weeks ago about how many times you heard that phrase.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You changed your testimony at that time and said it was three times instead of two times. Are we agreed on that?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Then he called you a week later — or met with you a week later — and again reiterated, making sure you stick with that testimony that it's three times, not two times.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And then last night he called you just to make sure one more time you're going to stick with that testimony that it was three times, not two times.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Hold on just a second. May I have just a moment?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And when you talked last night, did you assure Mr. Brennan — "Nope, nope, nope — when we come in tomorrow, I'm certainly going to say it was three times, not two times"?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir. I told them I would tell my recollection of that morning.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And did you tell him that your recollection is — "I'm going to tell the jurors it was three times that I heard it"?
MR. NUTTALL: That was what I heard.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell him that's what you were going to say today?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't?
MR. NUTTALL: I told him I was going to tell him what I remembered from that morning.
MR. JACKSON: Which was what?
MR. NUTTALL: I hit him. I — hit him. I hit him.
MR. JACKSON: Which is how many times?
MR. NUTTALL: Three times, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And that's inconsistent with what?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe a year ago.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Now, I want to get back to the other thing that you talked about. You said that at some point — either in the meeting three weeks ago, the meeting two weeks ago, or the meeting last night — you were shown a video.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Which one of those meetings were you shown a video?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe the second one.
MR. JACKSON: Shown the entire video?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Just the clip that we saw?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. What did y'all talk about in relation to that video?
MR. NUTTALL: Mostly nailing down who was who in that video. Being the other personnel on scene, where I was — and that was about it.
MR. JACKSON: He showed you the clip that — I'm sorry. He showed you the clip that you've just seen on direct examination. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell him where you were?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did Mr. Brennan ask you to define exactly where it was that you supposedly heard this phrase, "I hit him"?
MR. NUTTALL: No, I was able to give that to him, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And what you told him was that moment when you see my client walk over sort of to the left of the screen. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you defined that's the point at which she said, "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him."
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And that's in response to your question. I want to make sure I'm clear about this. You asked, "Do you know him?"
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And she repeated the phrase three times: "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Okay.
MR. JACKSON: We'll talk more about that in just a second. Did Mr. Brennan ask anything else about that specific video?
MR. NUTTALL: Nope. Like I said, he kind of asked me to point out different individuals on the scene, and that was really the extent of it.
MR. JACKSON: You saw that same video last year when you testified, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see it last year?
MR. NUTTALL: Not to my knowledge. No.
MR. JACKSON: In preparation for your testimony last year?
MR. NUTTALL: I did not.
MR. JACKSON: Did you see it before your grand jury testimony?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So this is the first time that you've seen it.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you were able to establish for Mr. Brennan exactly when it was that you believe you heard the statement, based on your view about two weeks ago of that video.
MR. NUTTALL: No, that was the way that I remember it.
MR. JACKSON: Right. Not a trick question. My question is much more simple. You were able to establish — after it's been three and a half years now — exactly where you were and where Miss Read was and who else was around at the time that you believe you heard those three statements in order: "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him."
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You testified last year as well that there is a normal protocol for removing clothing from a patient, and it's essential to just discard it and get it away from the patient so that you concentrate on the life-saving measures that you're undertaking. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: That could be done — you said — in the ambulance, it could be done in the hospital, it could be done in situ out there in the field. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: But the point is, you want to get as much clothing off of the person as possible so that you can assess that person's physiology.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: There's not really a lot of care taken to preserve the clothing from an evidentiary standpoint in your view. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: We're trained to try and — I mean, just to take the example of a shooting — try not to cut through the entrance wound of the clothing.
MR. JACKSON: Fair enough. Fair enough. I mean, when you're literally trying to save someone's life, your job is to get the clothing off and get it out of the way.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You're not sticking it in an evidence bag and sealing the evidence bag, things of that nature.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So it might end up on the ground, might end up with some debris on it.
MR. NUTTALL: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: Might end up on the floor of the ambulance.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Could end up on the floor of the hospital. Is that right?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And if it's tossed on the floor of the ambulance, the clothing may well pick up debris from the ambulance.
MR. NUTTALL: Oh yeah. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Or the debris from the floor of the hospital or wherever.
MR. NUTTALL: Mm-hmm. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You testified previously at the grand jury in April of 2022, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir. I believe so, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So this happened in January of 2022. That same year, in the springtime, you testified at a grand jury. April 20th, I think it was.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Does that sound right?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I want to take you back to that testimony for a second. You testified at that hearing that Mr. O'Keefe was, quote, dressed appropriately for the weather. You remember that?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. It was obviously well below freezing at that time. That night that you responded — it was. We've just seen the video. It looks cold as hell.
MR. NUTTALL: It was chilly.
MR. JACKSON: All right. The wind was howling.
MR. NUTTALL: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: It was snowing. Is that right?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you testified that John O'Keefe, quote, had a heavy coat on and possibly two other layers of clothing.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: In April 2024, you reiterated your very specific memory — and you even called it a puffy heavy coat — that he was wearing, which was then removed so that you could assess his injuries. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Not to get too colloquial, but a puffy coat is like — got down and stuff in it, right?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Looks kind of like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, right?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Pretty distinctive article of clothing.
MR. NUTTALL: Yep.
MR. JACKSON: And you testified last year that Mr. O'Keefe was wearing that clothing, which you had to remove — or somebody had to remove — in order for him to be properly assessed.
MR. NUTTALL: I did testify that way. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And you mentioned that your memory of that big heavy winter coat was as clear as your memory of other specifics in this case.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: I asked you that exact question, didn't I?
MR. NUTTALL: You did.
MR. JACKSON: And I said, "Your memory of him having that big puffy coat on, which stood out in your mind, was just as clear as the other specifics that you've testified to about the case."
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir. About that night.
MR. JACKSON: And turns out you were completely wrong about his clothing.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Matter of fact, he wasn't wearing a coat at all.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: He wasn't wearing a winter coat.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Nope.
MR. JACKSON: He wasn't wearing a heavy winter coat.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And he wasn't wearing a puffy, heavy winter coat.
MR. NUTTALL: He was not.
MR. JACKSON: Yet you testified that he was wearing all of that and that was clear in your mind at the time.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Did Mr. Brennan bring that up during the meeting three weeks ago?
MR. NUTTALL: He asked about what I had meant when I said "appropriately dressed."
MR. JACKSON: So you did talk about something other than just the "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him." Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: When I asked what y'all talked about, why didn't you tell us that?
MR. NUTTALL: To be perfectly honest, sir, I did not remember until right now.
MR. JACKSON: So your memory is fading even after three weeks.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. Well, let me ask you a different question. Did Mr. Brennan tell you what Mr. O'Keefe was actually wearing?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Actually, I believe you did. Last year, didn't I?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, you did.
MR. JACKSON: It's a short sleeve t-shirt and a little thin hoodie, right?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Wasn't wearing a hat.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Wasn't wearing — matter of fact, didn't even have a shoe on.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Not to my knowledge.
MR. JACKSON: And obviously goes without saying, but I'm going to ask it anyway. That's not being appropriately dressed for the winter.
MR. NUTTALL: No. No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Yeah. You indicated that you did notice certain injuries on Mr. O'Keefe's person, sir. Once you got him back in the ambulance, obviously it's lighter — meaning brighter lights. You have more equipment in the back of the ambulance, you can better assess somebody's well-being. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you indicated you had a, quote, much better picture of what we were dealing with. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: You noticed once in the back of the ambulance that he had trauma to the right side of his head.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And as a matter of fact, when you were pointing at it — I'm doing that on purpose because you pointed to the right side of your sort of forehead, above your right eyebrow. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. The majority — or the worst injury that Mr. O'Keefe suffered — was actually to the back of his head, which you've indicated you noted was quite matted with blood. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: I want to talk about the injury to the right side of his head as distinct from the back of the head injury for just a second. Before I get to that in detail, let me ask you — I just sort of want to cover the bases. You noted the back of the head injury, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You also noted the front right side of the head above the right eye. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: We did.
MR. JACKSON: You noticed some injury to his eyes — they look blackened.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: But primarily the right eye was blackened. And there was a golf ball-sized egg — I think you put it — over his right eye, often called a hematoma. Correct? shirt off that he had scratches along the right side of his arm. Is that right, sir? You indicated on direct examination today that you believe those scratches ended where? Meaning from top to bottom. And I'm not using anatomically correct language. So from shoulder to wrist, where were the scratches that you noted?
MR. NUTTALL: There were several. As I noted, they were on his right humerus area.
MR. JACKSON: Tell me what a humerus is.
MR. NUTTALL: The right arm. Biceps. Right about here. No. A little further, like between where your bicep and your tricep kind of meet. Right about in there.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And what did the scratches look like?
MR. NUTTALL: They were deep. I infamously referred to them as furrows. They were quite deep. You could tell that there had been some material removed.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Material meaning skin and flesh.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Some biological material.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And were they parallel, meaning they were going in the same direction?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Were there any scratches below the elbow as well?
MR. NUTTALL: There were. Yes, there were. They were not as significant as the ones in the upper arm, but they were noted.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And those were parallel as well.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And they look like scratches to you. That's how you describe them.
MR. NUTTALL: They did.
MR. JACKSON: Last year when you described those scratches, you curled your fingers up, exposing sort of the nails, and drew it across your biceps. Is that what you were using to describe what the scratches look like?
MR. NUTTALL: I just kind of use that as a landmark, to be honest with you, sir. It was just kind of how I quantified it in my mind.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But what you did was you did this motion.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: As you said there were furrows. And remember, there was an embarrassing moment for me.
MR. NUTTALL: Both of us, sir.
MR. JACKSON: I couldn't understand the word "furrow" because of the accent.
MR. NUTTALL: Right. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Let's talk a little bit about the hematoma above the right eye for a second. That's basically damage to subdural blood vessels that causes acute swelling, right?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And a very common cause of a hematoma over one's eye could be being hit or punched in the face. We talked about that.
MR. NUTTALL: There could be several causes for a hematoma such as that. Obviously, I mean, it could be a golf club, a baseball bat, or it could be a fist.
MR. JACKSON: It could be. Okay. We talked about that last year. I asked you if the injuries that you saw on Mr. O'Keefe's face, including the laceration over his right eye, was consistent or inconsistent with a physical altercation, and you said it was consistent with a physical altercation —
MR. BRENNAN: Objection to referring to past testimony before a question is asked.
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Do you remember a laceration — in addition to the hematoma — about an 8 cm laceration over his right eye?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Tell me — I'm using a word that maybe not everybody understands. I didn't understand it when we first started this thing. What's a laceration? What's the difference between that and a cut?
MR. NUTTALL: A laceration is basically the same thing. A laceration is just a deep cut.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So it's a parting of the skin.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: In other words, where the skin separates.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: And that can be from blunt force trauma, meaning something hits it rather than cuts it. What are some of the causes of lacerations?
MR. NUTTALL: You can get a laceration, as you noted, from blunt force, but you can also get a laceration from a slashing movement, from a stabbing. I mean, that is still a laceration.
MR. JACKSON: What about a hematoma? That is primarily caused by blunt force trauma, right? And the hematoma and the laceration were right next to each other, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Is that consistent or inconsistent with a physical altercation?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. NUTTALL: I could not say.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Next question. Well, last year you — you can't answer that. Last year you did answer it, didn't you?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I need to see counsel at sidebar for just a minute, please. Mr. Nuttall, we are going to let you take a break. We'll be back after the lunch break. So this is the lunch break. There's lunch here for you, I assume. Tony, is it there?
COURT OFFICER: It is.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. There's lunch here for you. We'll see you in about a half an hour.
COURT OFFICER: All rise, please. Jury's leading to the rear.
COURT OFFICER: for the session. Please be seated.
JUDGE CANNONE: All right, Mr. Jackson, you can go ahead.
MR. JACKSON: May I, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes, please.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Firefighter Nuttall, over the lunch hour, did you discuss anything that we had discussed this morning or earlier in the session with anybody about your testimony?
MR. NUTTALL: Oh, sorry. Okay.
MR. JACKSON: You did mention earlier today the EMTs that were with you that responded to the scene. You mentioned — I think you said Tony — Anthony Flatley, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You mentioned Kelly — and I want to say Matthew.
MR. NUTTALL: Matt Kelly.
MR. JACKSON: Matt Kelly. Yep. Yourself.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And of the three of you, two of the three of you were and are paramedics — firefighter Flatley and yourself. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Do you know the name Katie McLaughlin?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. JACKSON: Who is Katie McLaughlin?
MR. NUTTALL: She is a firefighter paramedic for the town of Canton.
MR. JACKSON: Was she also on the call?
MR. NUTTALL: She was.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't mention her this morning.
MR. NUTTALL: It did not come up. She responded on the initial dispatch on Engine 3.
MR. JACKSON: You were asked who responded with you, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: By Mr. Brennan.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you mentioned yourself. You mentioned Tony Flatley. You mentioned Matt Kelly.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes. Myself, firefighter Flatley, and firefighter Kelly responded in ambulance one—
MR. JACKSON: Together. Okay. And how did firefighter McLaughlin respond?
MR. NUTTALL: So she was assigned to engine 3 that night. She was with Lieutenant Woodbury and firefighter paramedic Frank Walsh.
MR. JACKSON: She also — in addition to Walsh being — and it's Frank Walsh.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: In addition to firefighter Walsh being a paramedic, Katie McLaughlin was also a paramedic.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So she responded to the scene at the same time as you generally, but in a different ambulance — in a fire truck, in a piece of fire apparatus.
MR. NUTTALL: She was in engine 3.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. Engine 3. Okay. And she was with you generally — when I say "with you" — at the scene during the entire time that you're describing the events that you described with Mr. Brennan on direct examination, for the most part. Okay. And she then left in a particular ambulance.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes. So she ended up driving ambulance one to Good Samaritan.
MR. JACKSON: And ambulance one was which ambulance?
MR. NUTTALL: Ambulance one was the initial ambulance that myself, firefighter Kelly, and firefighter Flatley responded in.
MR. JACKSON: So right after the scene — right after the scene you described, as you're leaving the scene — firefighter McLaughlin is in the ambulance with you and firefighter Flatley. Correct.
MR. NUTTALL: She is driving. So the three of us are in the back in the patient compartment. She is up front in the driver's seat.
MR. JACKSON: Once at the hospital, did firefighter McLaughlin go into the hospital with the other firefighters?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe so. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: So she was with you in the — she was, although in the driving cab. She was with you — I'm sorry — ambulance, in the driving cab. She was also with you right after the scene at the hospital, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And she was also with you later, after you cleared the hospital and went back to the station.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You had discussions with firefighter Flatley about the incident. That would be normal protocol, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Almost like a debrief.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. You had the same types of discussions with firefighter Kelly, Matt Kelly.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: I'm guessing that you probably had the same sorts of discussions with firefighter Walsh.
MR. NUTTALL: I actually don't know if I saw firefighter Walsh when we got back. That was right at shift change and the weather getting back was also getting worse. So I honestly couldn't speak to that.
MR. JACKSON: And you also had conversations with firefighter McLaughlin after you cleared the hospital and got back to the station as well.
MR. NUTTALL: She was part of the debrief.
MR. JACKSON: Yes, sir. Okay. And all of you discussed what you did, saw, and heard, generally speaking, while at the scene. Correct.
MR. NUTTALL: Those are more in terms of getting equipment wrangled — really kind of how they go. What did we use? What do we need? What are we going to have to restock when we get back, right? But there was also obviously discussion about what had just happened. I mean, you're dealing with a dead or dying police officer on a lawn, on a snow-covered lawn, in a cold environment. I honestly couldn't speak to that, sir. I honestly don't remember.
MR. JACKSON: It's because you don't remember.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Well, like I said, those debriefs are usually mostly — very equipment-focused. Make sure that the ambulance is ready for the next call, etc.
MR. JACKSON: I'm asking about a general debrief with the fellow firefighters, male and female, that you were with at that scene. You're telling me that you don't remember debriefing and discussing the incident and your observations at the incident following that incident?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. But your memory — you indicated earlier — gets better with time. Right.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You don't remember it as you sit here today?
MR. NUTTALL: Ask the question again.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Do you remember discussing with firefighter Flatley, firefighter Walsh, firefighter Kelly, firefighter McLaughlin — any of them — your observations and what happened while at the scene, after you cleared the hospital and got back to the station?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: No memory of that whatsoever?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: When we left off before lunch, I was asking you about a hematoma and a laceration over the right eye of Mr. O'Keefe. Do you recall that?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: I asked you — is being punched in the face something that can lead to a small laceration like you saw and a hematoma like you saw?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to allow it. You may answer that question.
MR. NUTTALL: I couldn't speak to how that injury occurred. Is it consistent? Are those injuries — those injuries — are those consistent with being punched in the face? Those injuries could be sustained in a numerous amount of ways. Yes, it could be. It could be from that. It could be from others as well.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So that's what I'm asking you. It could be. In other words, it's consistent with being punched in the face. Correct.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. I want to ask you about this statement that you indicate you heard — that now is three statements, three phrases. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: When you heard this statement, describe for me exactly where you were, what were you doing, and who was around you.
MR. NUTTALL: I was knelt at the head of John O'Keefe with a bag valve mask, delivering ventilations. Firefighter Kelly was to the right and firefighter Flatley was on the left side of Mr. O'Keefe. And the three of us together were working to perform CPR and ventilations.
MR. JACKSON: And your job — and I hate to butcher it, but you'll correct me — your job was to do the airway. Correct.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And I'm picturing a big balloon-like apparatus that you put over the patient's mouth and squeeze it.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes. That's — as opposed to — it's an advancement on just mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
MR. JACKSON: Correct. Yeah. You were the airway person doing the squeezing of the bag.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: What was Tony Flatley — firefighter Flatley — doing?
MR. NUTTALL: He was starting CPR, and at that point it was taken over by firefighter Kelly.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So firefighter Flatley, when you say "starting CPR," describe what that means. What is the physical act of CPR?
MR. NUTTALL: So you put both hands together like this, one on top of the other. You put it right on top of the sternum, and you begin doing chest compressions 2 inches deep, allowing full recoil, for 100 to 120 compressions a minute, to sustain a cardiac rhythm.
MR. JACKSON: You're manually making the heart beat with each compression, which means that is a rhythmic pumping motion.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So if you see someone doing CPR, you're probably going to see their shoulders moving up and down rhythmically.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember what firefighter Flatley was wearing? You had just — actually you were just coming onto a shift, so you didn't have all your foul weather gear officially.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. I had my — my
PARENTHETICAL: [unclear]
MR. NUTTALL: jacket. I had my Canton fire jacket.
MR. JACKSON: Got it. Officer — I'm sorry — firefighter Flatley on the other hand had a bright yellow jacket. Correct.
MR. NUTTALL: Sort of reflective, a safety jacket. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And he was kneeling to your left at the time doing — am I — have I got that right?
MR. NUTTALL: Yeah. No — I was — yep, you got that right.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. He's kneeling to your left at the time doing chest compressions. That's when you indicate that Miss Read walked over and made the statement.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And Kelly was there as well.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Kneeling right beside all three of you as firefighter Flatley was giving the chest compressions. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. You indicated that the statement was in response to a question that you asked of my client — "Do you know him?"
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Is that right?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: And she responded to you with the phrase that you've used — "I hit him. I hit him. My head. I hit him." Right. So it's absolutely clear in your mind when that statement was made. You were knelt down over Mr. O'Keefe. Firefighter Flatley was doing the CPR and Kelly was with both of you when you posed that question.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: It's a very detailed memory.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You indicated to Mr. Brennan that that sticks out in your mind. Is that right?
MR. NUTTALL: It does.
MR. JACKSON: But that's not at all what you told Trooper Proctor on February 8th, just 10 days after this incident, is it?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't recall what I told Trooper Proctor.
MR. JACKSON: I thought your memory got better with time.
MR. NUTTALL: I don't recall that meeting.
MR. JACKSON: Okay.
MR. NUTTALL: I recall meeting with him, but I don't recall the extent of what was discussed.
MR. JACKSON: You literally don't — in that meeting, in that formal interview with the lead detective on this case?
MR. NUTTALL: We discussed the case, but I don't — and in his words, I'm not sure what he put down.
MR. JACKSON: What you said to Trooper Proctor on February 8th, 10 days after this, was you overheard Miss Read say, "I hit him one time," to another female that she was talking to. Correct?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: No, I'll allow it.
MR. JACKSON: Did you say that?
MR. NUTTALL: I have no memory of this, your honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay, next question.
MR. JACKSON: Did you say that her statement was an answer to a question posed by the female, or a discussion with the female?
MR. NUTTALL: Break that down for me, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Sure. Did you tell Trooper Proctor on February 8th that what you heard was Karen Read speaking to a female, not answering a question that you posed?
MR. NUTTALL: Again, I don't recall that specific question.
MR. JACKSON: Did you tell Trooper Proctor on February 8th, while you were rendering aid, that at the time you heard the statement, Miss Read was actually praying over John?
MR. NUTTALL: Your words. Praying over John. I don't recall ever saying that.
MR. JACKSON: May I have just a moment, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Did you say that you observed Karen Read to have blood on her face from providing mouth-to-mouth breaths to Mr. O'Keefe prior to your arrival?
MR. NUTTALL: I remember Miss Read having blood on her face, presumably from attempting CPR.
MR. JACKSON: Do you remember telling Trooper Proctor on February 8th that you saw her with blood on her face from CPR?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. JACKSON: So you remember that portion of your conversation with Trooper Proctor?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: But the praying over John — praying over the victim — you don't remember?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't remember ever saying that. Ever.
MR. JACKSON: And the statement "I hit him" to another female — you also don't remember that?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Would it refresh your recollection if you were to look at a report authored by Trooper Proctor? May I?
PARENTHETICAL: [voice]
MR. JACKSON: : Your honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: May I direct the witness's attention to the second page?
JUDGE CANNONE: All right. Why don't you take a look at that?
MR. JACKSON: May I approach, your honor?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Sir, did you have an opportunity to glance at the report that you were just shown?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Does that refresh your recollection about your conversation with Trooper Proctor that he put in a report?
MR. NUTTALL: It does not, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So, as you sit here, you have no memory of what you just read in this report from Trooper Proctor, the lead investigator on the case.
MR. NUTTALL: I have no recollection of ever saying that anybody prayed over anybody ever in this case.
MR. JACKSON: You did see it in his report though, right?
JUDGE CANNONE: Sustained.
MR. JACKSON: You've admitted under oath that your memory of events from that time frame — January-February 2022 — is faulty. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: In your April 2024 — it's April 30th, 2024 — testimony from last year. You were asked whether or not your memory was a little faulty, and your answer was "absolutely." Correct?
JUDGE CANNONE: Could I have a page and line number, please?
MR. JACKSON: That's volume 8, page 151, lines 14-16.
JUDGE CANNONE: Can you read the lines again?
MR. JACKSON: Lines 14-16.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'll just allow counsel to get that up. If we could pose the entire question and give context to it, please.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. May I?
JUDGE CANNONE: Yeah. So, do you intend to show the whole question?
MR. JACKSON: The whole question that I asked and his answer.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes. All right. And I'll give you the opportunity. I'll redirect Mr. Brennan if it's not. Go ahead.
MR. JACKSON: Isn't it true that in answer to the question — "So it's fair to say your memory is a little bit faulty as it pertains to that time frame" — your answer was "absolutely"? Correct, from last year. What you testified to last year about conversations that you had with Trooper Proctor around February 8th of 2022.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you would agree, as you sit here, that your memory is still faulty about your conversation with Trooper Proctor.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: So, you're not saying you didn't say that the statement was made to a woman?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: Are you saying that?
MR. NUTTALL: No, ma'am.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Next question. Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: And you're also not saying that you didn't say to Trooper Proctor that you saw Karen Read praying over John O'Keefe.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: So I'd like you to ask that — [unintelligible].
MR. JACKSON: Did you say that?
MR. NUTTALL: I have no recollection of saying that ever.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. Next question.
MR. JACKSON: My point is — if you have no recollection of it, you're not denying saying it.
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
MR. JACKSON: Are you denying saying it?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So you do have a recollection that you never said it. Do you understand the difference?
MR. NUTTALL: Oh, sir, I don't believe I've ever said "praying." That's really not something that I would have said. I didn't see it that day. It didn't happen. I don't remember ever saying "prayed" in regards to this case. Ever.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see it that day and it never happened. Those were your words just now. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct.
MR. JACKSON: Break that down for me. You didn't see it that day and it never happened — that's what you're saying about the praying statement.
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And in that same exact statement, you also included the phrase "I hit him." Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: In the statement that you made to Trooper Proctor — the report that Trooper Proctor wrote — correct?
MR. NUTTALL: I don't remember ever saying the words "praying over him." I do distinctly remember "I hit him. I hit him. I hit him."
MR. JACKSON: Which doesn't appear in that report, does it?
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to sustain that. Mr. Jackson, you directed him only to page two.
MR. JACKSON: Understood. Your honor, I'd like to show a short portion of a video — the same video that you were asked to look at on direct examination. And your honor, I pray to the court, I can certainly mark it as a defense exhibit or for identification.
JUDGE CANNONE: Is this going to be an exhibit by agreement?
MR. JACKSON: It is.
JUDGE CANNONE: Okay. So we'll note that, Madame Court Reporter. Thank you.
COURT CLERK: Thank you, your honor.
MR. JACKSON: With the court's permission, may I play a portion of that video for the jurors?
JUDGE CANNONE: Publish it. Okay. Which portion? So people know.
MR. JACKSON: I'm going to start it at about — I want to say — 6:55. Mr. Woll, could you cue that up before you play it. Can we have it on that screen as well, or is it only playing to this screen?
MR. JACKSON: There we go. All right. Before we play it, can I ask you a quick question about this?
MR. NUTTALL: Sure.
MR. JACKSON: It appears that this is paused. Do you recognize this as being the same video that you were shown this morning by Mr. Brennan?
MR. NUTTALL: I do.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Describe the scene.
MR. NUTTALL: So, that is 34 Fairview Road. The lights in the background — I believe it is either right as we pulled up or right as we're pulling up.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Same dash cam video. Sir, can we scroll this to the 6:55 runtime spot, please? Pause it. Okay. Do you see the individual on the left? Far far left.
MR. NUTTALL: Yeah. The jacket.
MR. JACKSON: Correct.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Who's that?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe that's firefighter Flatley.
MR. JACKSON: You previously indicated Flatley was on his knees providing CPR at the same time you were knelt down providing the airway.
MR. NUTTALL: This isn't when it was stated.
MR. JACKSON: That's not my question. Is that what you said?
MR. NUTTALL: Can you repeat the question, please?
MR. JACKSON: Sure. You indicated earlier that when you heard this statement by my client, you were very detailed — firefighter Flatley was knelt down providing chest compressions at the same time you were knelt down providing airway support for Mr. O'Keefe. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: I had also said that at some point firefighter—
MR. BRENNAN: Objection.
JUDGE CANNONE: I'm going to let the witness answer the question.
MR. NUTTALL: —had transferred CPR to firefighter Kelly. Firefighter Kelly did take over compressions at one point.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. That's not my question. My question is an easy one. Did you say that when Miss Read walked over to you and you had this dialogue with her — she made that statement — that firefighter Flatley was on his knees providing chest compressions at the same time you were knelt down providing airway support?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Firefighter Flatley, your testimony — appears to be standing up right there. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Let's play the video forward for just a second. Stop it. What did you see firefighter Flatley do just now?
MR. NUTTALL: Believe he just knelt down.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So at this point, he's kneeling for the first time. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And he's providing — or about to provide — chest compressions, as your memory serves. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Let's go ahead and play it forward. Pause. Did you see my client in that clip?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You didn't see her?
MR. NUTTALL: Oh, no. I did see her. Yeah. I don't see her right now.
MR. JACKSON: Right. She just walked off frame, correct, sir. Let's go ahead and play it forward. Stop it. You see my client walk back into the frame?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: At this point, you were watching firefighter Flatley. He appears to be now providing CPR. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes. Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And my client is nowhere near you. Correct — at least for this clip.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Correct. Is that right?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Let's go ahead and play it forward. Pause it, please. What do you see happening on the screen, from screen right to screen left at this juncture?
MR. NUTTALL: We're bringing in the stretcher.
MR. JACKSON: Okay, go ahead and play it. Pause it. Do you see where my client is right now?
MR. NUTTALL: Can you back it up two seconds? Sorry, I lost you.
MR. JACKSON: With the court's permission. Thank you. Okay, let's go ahead and play it. All right, pause. Did you see my client?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Where is she?
MR. NUTTALL: In the frame. Behind that other individual. Behind the SUV. I believe she's in front of the SUV and behind the other individual.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. I meant the SUV — that's the white SUV that's in—
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: —the far distance. Yes. That's the back of the SUV. She's behind it, right?
MR. NUTTALL: Correct. Yes.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Not near you.
MR. NUTTALL: No.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. Let's go ahead and play it. Go ahead and pause it. Do you see what firefighter Flatley is— [unintelligible] [unintelligible] Okay, let's go ahead and play it. Pause. What's happening now?
MR. NUTTALL: Mr. O'Keefe is on the scoop stretcher and he's being transferred to the ambulance stretcher.
MR. JACKSON: So that's the entire time — firefighter Flatley was giving chest compressions — captured right here on this video. Correct?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And now Mr. O'Keefe is up on the stretcher and you are no longer knelt down.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And firefighter Flatley is no longer knelt down.
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: And you're now following the stretcher with, it looks like, two or three other EMTs?
MR. NUTTALL: I am not in that frame, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. So you've walked away.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: All right. Let's go ahead and play it forward. Pause it. You see where my client is?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Go ahead and play it. Do you see firefighter Flatley or firefighter Kelly continuing to give chest compressions?
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Which one is that? Do you know?
MR. NUTTALL: I believe it's firefighter Flatley.
MR. JACKSON: Flatley? Believe so. Okay. So he's still doing all the chest compressions from start to finish.
MR. NUTTALL: Yes, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Okay. And what's happening right now?
MR. NUTTALL: Now we are transferring to ambulance one.
MR. JACKSON: And where's my client?
MR. NUTTALL: Right front and center.
MR. JACKSON: I have just a moment, Your Honor.
JUDGE CANNONE: Yes.
MR. JACKSON: If I may have just a second. With regard — just a couple more questions with court's permission — okay, I'm going to change gears. With regard to what you talked about on direct examination, the hypothermic conditions, you're not a medical doctor, correct?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: You don't diagnose patients, sir. You're not diagnosing that John — John O'Keefe suffered from hypothermia that night?
MR. NUTTALL: No, sir.
MR. JACKSON: Thank you. That's all I have.